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Gottlieb:

First of all, I think that Pat is a very knowledgeable person, some would say an expert, on Rohm daggers.

That doesn't mean that he can't be wrong, but it does mean to me that I think you should check further.

What Pat recommends, asking Tom W or Paul at lakesidetrader for an opinion, is probably a good thing.

None of these people, including Pat, have anything to gain or to lose by telling you their opinion.

Ultimately make up your own mind, but, please listen to people who are trying their best to help.

John


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No worry I will not throw it in the ocean - it is too far :-)

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John I do not think that anyone here might disagree with me for fun.

I just want to say that sometimes legit items might be a little different than known textbook pieces.

If I buy this dagger from someone in this hobby for a big money I would not be so sure.

I have bought it from person who did not even know what is SA and how much is worth common SA dagger.

I have paid for it less than parts are worth. I do not belive it was a good deal for him :-(.

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yes i understand your point but i do not think you will win this one

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I have for liveing so I do not have to sell it.

thanks

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I will explain my position.I know something about daggers.I said I thought it was a bad inscription and asked others for their opinion.I could have been told by just as many members it was correct,which would have been fine with me.The reason I pointed it out was many times I see Helmets,hats,flags,medals,and many more TR items that I know nothing about but am interested in buying.I always think if the items were bad other members would be sure to point it out.That is not the case.So unless I have my own knowledge of an item.I tend not to buy them.It is much too risky and these items are expen$ive.Thats it,nothing personal.


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One more thing on top of all others, Pack did not issue Rohm SA’s to OST.

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pat drop it ,The issue is dead once again unless you were alive back than to see where every sa was sent and sa records are the worse to figure anything out it is back to supply and demand and the human factor.

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Just giving out important informations and it is nothing personal and the SA records prior to 1934 were pretty damn accurate to my knowledge, it was perhaps different when the war started.

In any case, the issue is now over with me and I do feel sorry for Gottlieb's SA dagger but it is what it is, end of the story. Nothing personal !

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dang good thread i say granted all records were very good in every branch but so much was destroyed or lost to time we will never fully know many details of the third only what little scraps of history that made it to us that why it is so much fun to argue.

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Originally Posted By: Gottlieb


I have bought it from person who did not even know what is SA and how much is worth common SA dagger.

I have paid for it less than parts are worth. I do not belive it was a good deal for him :-(.


...and you thought you were getting an original full rohm dagger for pennies while the seller wanted to just get a bicycle for his daughter. - OoooKayyy...
I would not be posting that.
That kind of behavior is considered 'shameful' and doesn't sit well with most collectors.

Personally...I'm glad you did mention that little fact since now I don't feel sorry
for the seller because he unknowingly sold you a fake and you unknowingling bought what you thought was an original. laugh

-serge-

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That is what I call real collector and that is why I slowly quit this hobby.

I bet You never bought a dagger for a really low price from the person not especially educated in this matter ?????

Come on a little bit honesty here....

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Gentlemen,

Let us keep to the facts and not start personal attacks.

I just red the topic and I have to add the following: the Röhm SA dagger shown here is clearly lacking the unique Pack features:

- the grip wood and color
- the shape of the scabbard fittings
- the position of the screws

I can only conclude that this is an original SA (but not by Pack!) to which the blade was switched/added.

In my opinion, the blade is not an original: inscription and the makersmark are too different compared to proven originals.

Best greetings,

Herman


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I agree with Gottlieb here Serge. This is not a fair comment!

One should not be ashamed of knowing his stuff and finding a good deal on the market.

However as to this blade as I said in person Gottlieb I am in ROHM purists camp so supporting PAT's view.

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Originally Posted By: Gottlieb


I bet You never bought a dagger for a really low price from the person not especially educated in this matter ?????

Come on a little bit honesty here....



Honestly, I never bought a Full Rohm SA for less than the 'parts are worth'.
When I wanted a nice one they were already in the thousands.

But what you don't want to seem to admit is that what you paid 'less than the parts are worth' on this dagger....is just what you got. You got a good deal on parts .

-serge-

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Gottlieb: Is it possible to see good pictures of the tang marks and the blade-tang area?


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Originally Posted By: OverLord
I agree with Gottlieb here Serge. This is not a fair comment!

One should not be ashamed of knowing his stuff and finding a good deal on the market.

However as to this blade as I said in person Gottlieb I am in ROHM purists camp so supporting PAT's view.



OverLord, Of course one should not be ashamed of knowing his stuff and getting a good deal but you seem to miss the 'key' point here. The fact is (it should be apparent by now) that 'Gottlieb' doesn't know his stuff and bought a fake.
Maybe it's just me who sees the Irony in it.
So ...it's FUNNY TO ME.

If nobody else sees the humor/irony/justice in it all - it's OK with me.

-serge-

Last edited by Serge (aka Wagner); 06/15/2011 09:21 PM.
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Originally Posted By: Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
Gentlemen,

Let us keep to the facts and not start personal attacks.

I just red the topic and I have to add the following: the Röhm SA dagger shown here is clearly lacking the unique Pack features:

- the grip wood and color
- the shape of the scabbard fittings
- the position of the screws

I can only conclude that this is an original SA (but not by Pack!) to which the blade was switched/added.

In my opinion, the blade is not an original: inscription and the makersmark are too different compared to proven originals.

Best greetings,

Herman



I agree with the authenticity statements in this thread with zorro, (good call!), Pat,
RedBaron and Herman.
The example shown by Gottlieb is -IMO- a parts dagger with a fake blade.
Here is 'period' Obverse view of a Rohm e-Pack.

-serge-



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Knowing his stuff good enough to make a good deal even if this is the parts dagger anyway..
It still has a value on the market.

This irony would indded make me laugh if only I havent been burned so many times on good deals...

BTW> That's a bloody expensive bike you got this girl GOT! In price comparison I think I am riding junk.

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Some answers and thoughts:

Sorry I put it here instead of in the Rohm Dagger Forum.

Pat - OST is East Prussia and they were part of the initial distribution of Rohm daggers. You might have been thinking of Austria, which was not part of the TR when these daggers were given out.

Gottlieb - The wax templates were NOT handmade. They were thin sheets of wax on special paper with the inscription as the blank areas. They were made by decal makers. Although superficially the same, there were many makers. The Rohm signature does not vary much if at all.

Everyone - EP&S is the most difficult maker to pin down as their trademark is complex and was changed in small detail and did not appear at the same place on the blade. Additionally, because trademark is complex, time in the acid bath could change the way he looked.

This dagger?

1. The screw placement on the scabbard is not what I would expect to see on an EP&S dagger. Neither are the grip wood or the scabbard anodizing - see below.

2. The etching is not as deep in the photos as I would have expected, front or back.

3. The Sigfried figure is unlike any others I have seen.

4. The letters of the word "Solingen" are very distorted.

Sheathed-front.jpg (50.81 KB, 214 downloads)
Sa Pack, E & S.jpg (29.81 KB, 213 downloads)
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god you gotta love this place.

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Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus


Gottlieb - The wax templates were NOT handmade. They were thin sheets of wax on special paper with the inscription as the blank areas. They were made by decal makers. Although superficially the same, there were many makers. The Rohm signature does not vary much if at all.


Absolutely correct, people often confuse this fact, the templates were mechanically produced and applied by hand. There should only be minor variations mostly in letter thickness due to time in the acid bath, ambient temperature, age of the acid, etc.

Red

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Mostly correct. SA/SS Mottos both DO have variations. Even epack SA mottos patterns shown here by Red have them.
Most of SS Mottos variations shown in TW's book.
Besides, as far as I know, wax on paper templates is not the only one technique used in the period.
----
Anyway, the dagger shown by Gottlieb is no good.


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Originally Posted By: anlvd2
Mostly correct. SA/SS Mottos both DO have variations. Even epack SA mottos patterns shown here by Red have them.
Most of SS Mottos variations shown in TW's book.
Besides, as far as I know, wax on paper templates is not the only one technique used in the period.
----
Anyway, the dagger shown by Gottlieb is no good.


Agreed, there are a multitude of motto patterns or designs, some are distinctive to particular manufacturers, others are found on multiple makers, others still are generic as seen on many RZM daggers.

The point I was making that a given pattern or template will yield a consistent etch or motto, the letter shape will not change using the SAME template pattern. Here's an example, can't remember who to credit this to. The example shown appears to be an Eickhorn style motto pattern...

Red

333103124_1.jpg (106.1 KB, 231 downloads)
Wax etch templates
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Wax section

243103124_2.jpg (71 KB, 230 downloads)
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Yes, I've seen this papers offered for sale at Stuttgart's Military Show couples years ago.
SS Motto papers were also available.


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But I still can not fina any partiular differences in motto on my dagger and any other PACK ??!!?!?!?

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Hi Gottlieb,

This is the Pack motto, I've ringed some of the typical markers for the "textbook" Pack pattern, compare it carefully and you'll notice the differences. Compare it to the template motto as well, you'll note the differences immediately...

Red

Pack-SA-Motto.jpg (52.93 KB, 190 downloads)
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do you rally know how this templet was made in 1930 germany .these were die rolled templet a HUMAN had to make the orignal there was more than one person that sat there and made these dies orignals.Also we do have wear in a die over time so there will be slight changes from number one to lets say 10000 . the dagger in question does need more in hand review i agree but there is no way we can think that everything is textbook in manfuraction. we can not do it today .

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I just compared two of my herder daggers just take a look a the "T" in heisst sombody should be shot for that , or check out the other letters,

i can show you pictures of my hammesfahrs, or my 121/34

they are absolutely not identical,

so please dont say that the etches are identical because they are not,

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Indeed they look totally diferent.

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Red I'm a little bit tired ..

Give me a few hours and I will show You are not right. One of us has to change a doctor...

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As I said above, "Although superficially the same, there were many makers", and this means many small variances. We have seen this time and again here. The same dagger maker can have different motto etches.

This is why I do not think that daggers can be rejected based solely on motto characteristics.

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I took me some time but I have found right now two variations of Pack etching.

The same is with Hammesfahr SS motto - two different styles and both legit.


redpack.jpg (27.67 KB, 196 downloads)
ralfpack.jpg (35.76 KB, 196 downloads)
robpack.jpg (22.97 KB, 196 downloads)
piotrpack.jpg (23.42 KB, 196 downloads)
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And combination of both above styles taken from trusted seller in US...

wittpack.jpg (36.81 KB, 193 downloads)
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Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus
As I said above, "Although superficially the same, there were many makers", and this means many small variances. We have seen this time and again here. The same dagger maker can have different motto etches.

This is why I do not think that daggers can be rejected based solely on motto characteristics.



That is right - SAINT WORDS

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Gottlieb,

Forget the motto. Look at:

- The Scabbard - it does not have the screw placement associated with EP&S and it does not have the color either.

- Crossguards shape and wood finish is not typical pack

- The trademark is terrible

Dave

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Dave not that I am taking sides, but i just wanted to point out a fact that I have seen many Pack daggers with the screw placement high and low. although Pack made upper scabbard fittings with Mid screw positions and it was a trademark with them , is it necessary that ALL Pack scabbards were made this way?
It is true though that many Blade makers bought their parts from outside sources to complete their assembly.
On page 137 Of Ralf Siegerts SA book shows a great example of an F.A. Kirschbaum and the screw placement is identical of a Pack scabbard. So it seems that Pack wasnt the only one making these type scabbards or did Kirschbaum buy from the outside also. Army crossguard eagles are a great example.
Is this a genuine Pack dagger? No I think not, too many things happening on it. The motto is bad IMO and i can not repeat my reasons since no one else has touched on it. Fakers are watching!! There are many Pack daggers out of the woodwork and Vet returned examples with High screw placement. Anything is possible during the period and after the war.
IMO the initial production were made with Mid level screw positions and shorter looking upper scabbard fittings. Eickhorn was Packs #1 competitor and as production increased so did the need of parts. Pack and Eickhorn were major suppliers of parts to be outsourced to other makers but even the big makers needed a few favors.


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Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus
Gottlieb,

Forget the motto. Look at:

- The Scabbard - it does not have the screw placement associated with EP&S and it does not have the color either.

- Crossguards shape and wood finish is not typical pack

- The trademark is terrible

Dave



"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I've watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain. Time to die......."

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Sieg,

Scabbards with the placement of screws as EP&S used are indeed found on other daggers occasionally. TW sold a very nice Klass SS dagger with one of these scabbards last year at MAX.

When I noticed this some years ago, I was told that EP&S made their own scabbards and sometimes sold them to other Solingen makers. I have also seen a couple of EP&S daggers with a more normal screw placement. All I can guess is that the Solingen makers helped each other out when one was low on parts or assemblies. This is well documented with Heer daggers so I presume it happened with others.

I can tell you that if you spot an SS or SA dagger with the EP&S screw placement and call it out as a Pack dagger without looking at the trademark, you have a 99% chance of being right.

Dave



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