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#246728 06/14/2011 08:14 AM
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Time come to sell my Pack SA full ROHM. Bought years ago from vets son. Pictures says all. With questions please emal me or PM. 100% original. Comes from my collection and I'm the first person owning it as a collector.

Asking price $3500 (split PayPal, shipping included)

My email: germanblade@germanblade.com

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the rest of the pictures

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I do not think this is a genuine inscription.I would like too hear from others.


"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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Hello, here is my partial Pack for comparsion.

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Originally Posted By: zorro
I do not think this is a genuine inscription.I would like too hear from others.


Why do You think so? Just saying "I do not think .. " is just not enough.

My word against Yours. My reputation against Your "I dont think so ...". What is worth more ??

Saying so costs nothing. Do You think I would sell dagger like that HERE being not sure of it ?

I can send additional pictures to any interested.

Last edited by Gottlieb; 06/14/2011 06:32 PM.
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few additional picures of the etching....

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The E Pack trademark is too high on the blade for me.The inscription has no depth and lies on the top of the blade.Compare it to the partial that was listed,lots of different shapes to letters.I left my opinions open to others to tell there opinions,but since you asked those are mine. Daggers are hard to judge when not in hand.This is not even close Let's hear from the "experts".

Last edited by zorro; 06/14/2011 07:00 PM.

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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picture of the placement of the TM on Pack Ground Rohm taken from a known dealer...

Luko please tell us the dimension from the tip of the blade where begins inscription...

Remember etching was a hand made job and it is always easy to find differences in shape..

Depth of the etching is rather hard to picture but it exists...

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another Ground Rohm Pack I used to have bought here on GD.com

Have a look at the placement of the TM

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They were not hand done they were acid etched.There will be minor differences but not major.These are my opinions. I don't care where daggers come from and most people would be better off if they did not care either.

Last edited by zorro; 06/14/2011 07:18 PM.

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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and endly have a look at the page 195 & 205 of Ralph Siegert SA book :-) (German Edition)

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Originally Posted By: zorro
They were not hand done they were acid etched.There will be minor differences but not major.These are my opinions. I don't care where daggers come from and most people would be better off if they did not care either.


Acid etching WAS a hand made job...

Look at the pictures in Ralph book ... (I hope this helps)

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To the interest of all members, I think it would be a good idea to post this dagger in the proper section for further discussion.

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This topic has been moved from the "For Sale" area to allow discussion by non-premium members.

The dagger remains for sale

Dave

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Hard to judge for me,i'm not an expert on inscription.
But here is the depth visible,
the name looks ok to me.

Gerd

E Röhm gdc.jpg (65.93 KB, 335 downloads)
Last edited by kreta1961; 06/14/2011 09:54 PM.
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Would it be possible for you to post a close up pic of the maker marked ? This in my opinion would clear any doubts on the authenticity issue of this blade.

Here's mine as a reference !

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Originally Posted By: Gottlieb

My reputation against Your "I dont think so ...". What is worth more ??


Wow...I agree that he should have made more facts available to back his opinion, but your response is remarkably arrogant, in MY opinion.

I would have thought that someone with your "reputation" would have been less so.....

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Here's Gottlieb's maker marked and that's the best I could do.

It is obvious to anyone that both trademarks are very different and pretty much puts an end to this discussion.
I'm sorry to say that Zorro was correct and this SA full Rohm is a complete reproduction. There are even more obvious red flags in the inscription itself but the tradmark alone is enought proof for me.

Sorry for the bad news !


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Last edited by Pat; 06/15/2011 04:30 AM.
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Here are some of the differences from a genuine Pack logo marked in red.

Compare both !

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I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, but why was this moved to the SA dagger forum and not posted in our Rohm dagger forum where one would expect to find it? I am very interested in all opinions on this dagger and hope that more Rohm "specialists" get a chance to have a close look at and comment on it.


GDC Gold Badge #0204

"Even if such objects cannot change the soul of man, at least they give him an identity." - Heinrich Himmler
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Pat sorry to say that but Pack TM differs from each one almost always. Here was a discussion on it. Take 10 SA Pack blades and compare them. You will always find differences. Comparing mine only to Yours is a little missundestanding...

Look in Ralph book on page 306 where Pack logo is listed for instance ... looks like he shows fake too...

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Here is another. Logo is identical to Pat's.



There are people here that don't need to look into a book when they studied something like a Rohm dedication for years.

I agree- the whole dedication is also a fake -IMHO- or that's what it looks like to me. frown

You got this one from a 'Vet'? shocked
Yea - sorry about that.

-serge-

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Yes from vets son and it is a true story. You do not belive it is not my problem.

Anyway here is a Pack logo on ground Rohm blade - pictures taken from well known site. Looks like fake too.

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I have never been interested in such a dagger because it is such a mine field with fakes abounding. I never studied them either because there is no point if you could never afford one, but, seeing one offered by a dealer at half price even caught my eye! But then I remembered I don`t believe in Father Christmas any more smile

In this instance I am very interested in the opinion of those that do know. If this gets the green light I`m sure it will sell very quickly!


War is when your government tells you who the enemy is.
Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself.
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Originally Posted By: Gottlieb
Yes from vets son and it is a true story. You do not belive it is not my problem.


Look, I never said I don't believe you.

These epack full Rohm dedications have been seen here with all kinds of strange looking logos and have been discussed here several years ago. A great informative thread with lots of photos - uh...gone now to history. Although we were supposed to get those all back. tired
There was the 'Open Hammer', 'Solid Hammer', 'Big &' (yours) and many very slight variations of the Seigfried. From what I recall the collectors fell into two clusters; those that would only accept the epack 'textbook logo' (shown by Pat and myself), and the other who didn't want any epack SA full Rohm.

It would be sad to throw out a good dagger but from my recollection when there were more advanced members on this forum the consensus among most was that it was 'not liked'.
The Full ground example you show here doesn't prove or disprove anything since one can hardly see
anything. >> pictures taken from well known site. Looks like fake too.<<

-serge-

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I agree with Pat's and Serge's assessment of the maker marks, they are the only "variants" that I have ever been comfortable with or seen on daggers I KNOW to have been period, the type with the smaller '&'. I have owned others with different maker marks including the open-hammer version which were very convincing, perhaps even period, but the anomalies always bothered me personally and are difficult to explain away.

But I think the dagger should also be viewed in its entirety. Early Packs are very distinctive, the scabbard fittings, shape & screw position, grip shape, motto style, inscription and maker mark all provide the signs, not to mention the hidden features like tang forge markings and crossguard caster marks. Besides the inscription and maker mark, the motto is not typical Pack, the scabbard fittings are also not typical, as is the grip shape.

Pack Rohms are a minefield, a ton of fakes, apparently the best of which were made by Attwood which are very difficult to identify. I think Zorro called this one...

Red

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Red I would not agree with You, motto is typical for Pack, Crossguards marked with s in a horse shoe, on the tang letter A in circle and number 2.

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Originally Posted By: Landser
I have never been interested in such a dagger because it is such a mine field with fakes abounding. I never studied them either because there is no point if you could never afford one, but, seeing one offered by a dealer at half price even caught my eye! But then I remembered I don`t believe in Father Christmas any more smile

In this instance I am very interested in the opinion of those that do know. If this gets the green light I`m sure it will sell very quickly!


Dea Landser You do not have to belive in Father Christmas. My price I asked considers overall condition of the dagger (honestly it is not a mint condition but pretty good) and price I have paid for it 6 years ago. I'm not intendet to earn as much as possible on this one... (just my thoughts)...

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Originally Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner)
Originally Posted By: Gottlieb
Yes from vets son and it is a true story. You do not belive it is not my problem.


Look, I never said I don't believe you.

These epack full Rohm dedications have been seen here with all kinds of strange looking logos and have been discussed here several years ago. A great informative thread with lots of photos - uh...gone now to history. Although we were supposed to get those all back. tired
There was the 'Open Hammer', 'Solid Hammer', 'Big &' (yours) and many very slight variations of the Seigfried. From what I recall the collectors fell into two clusters; those that would only accept the epack 'textbook logo' (shown by Pat and myself), and the other who didn't want any epack SA full Rohm.

It would be sad to throw out a good dagger but from my recollection when there were more advanced members on this forum the consensus among most was that it was 'not liked'.
The Full ground example you show here doesn't prove or disprove anything since one can hardly see
anything. >> pictures taken from well known site. Looks like fake too.<<

-serge-



OK but this way You (collectors) decided to disagree as originals not a textbook variations that were legit.

I have seen toons of Pack TM's and have seen so many variations...

All I have is my word and honesty. I'm the first collector who owns this dagger. Purchased from vets son whose doughter wanted to buy a bicycle. I have picked it in person here in Warsaw. Vets son was totally uninformed in german daggers. I have offerd the price and his doughter agreed saying this will be enough to buy a bicycle. That is the story

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The tang and crossguard markings would be correct, but the motto is not the typical Pack style. Pack has quite angular characters, look at the capital A, D, h & d to start compared to yours...

Red

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Pack SA Mottos
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I'm sorry to say that the inscription on your blade is light years away from any known originals.
I do believe that you bought it from a vet but like someone once said, " don't believe the story but just the fact ".
Send your dagger to Gailen or Paul Hogle, they will give a hand on inspection for a small fee and you will get your answer, though I already know the answer.

The maker marked that you have shown from another "expert" is very different from yours, it has nothing to do with the one you have, take a close look.

Once again, I sincerely feel sorry for you but it is what it is and it ain't going to change.


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Look at your maker marked, you should have a "U" shape mark on your knee but yours doesn't.
The picture that you have posted from the expert, DOES have that "U" shape sign.

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Originally Posted By: Redbaron
The tang and crossguard markings would be correct, but the motto is not the typical Pack style. Pack has quite angular characters, look at the capital A, D, h & d to start compared to yours...

Red


Maybe I have some eye problems but I can not see difference. All the pictures are taken on a different angle so some letters might look not quite similar but overall inscription is typical Pack. I see no difference in letter A or D and other....

Sorry guys I do not need to ask experts for the opinion because I know what I have and how get into possesion. Maybe not a textbook like Pat's or Serge's assumed to be the only green flag originals but also legit.

Pat on the picture I have posted as the exaple of different Pack TM there is no U on the right knee.

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Sorry mate but the "U" shape mark is clearly there, here's a close up of the "expert" maker marked blade, ground Rohm.

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Sorry Pat I can see only a stright line no U shape ?!?!?

But I can see a small G in word SOLINGEN quite different than TEXTBOOK and similar to mine. Funny isn't it ?

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Please, be realistic, the SOLINGEN is NOT at all like yours, it is completely different.
First of all, the grip on your dagger is not even proper, it ain't an E. Pack grip.
There were different types of trademark used by E.Pack, we all know this for sure, but all of them had some sort of a mark on the knee................yours has ZERO.

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For some reasons, I cannot post any picture where I've underlined in red ink all of the flaws present in the inscription.
It is an easy matter to prove that the inscription is a reproduction, if anyone can post the picture for me.

Thanks

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Sorry Pat there is a U shape on the knee of my dagger TM. You have covered it with red line on the previous picture.
I do not understand why You want so hardly proove You are right ? I will find You major differences in the inscription between two so called textbook daggers. As far as I know Pack did about 7.000 SA daggers (early between 1933 - 1936). I do not belive all of them were exactly the same in motto. About 1/3 of them were ROHM daggers (I guess) so it is impossible to create about 2.000 of them with exacly the same inscription. As I said above it was a hand made acid job...
It is easy to spot it in differences on TM's.

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ok time for me to chime in we are talking human doing a job in the 30s with out the benfit of a computer .These etch wax plates were hand made by people now if you look at anything that is hand made left look at cheap china pottery on a shelf the same design on any two pieces is close but not exact.I am sorry but no two human can do the same thing with out some given diffrence and if you think the same person sat there and did a couple thousand etch in the short time frame they had to get these out the door you are mistaken.Now on to the grip as sullpy runs short manfactures run out to look for other products you can't supply me enough or I can't make enough yeah i'll buy a couple hundred from who ever just to get them out the door once again the human factor plays in even on todays tools it is very hard to hold tolarnce on any given product in mass on a short time.I disagree with the whole thread This will put me in the line of fire but I think we have thumb down alot of daggers and did not take in the human factor.Today with cnc machine and high end computers there is still a factor of reject products on any given product.I guess maybe that would make them fakes. Sorry guys i don't agree. But what i know my two cents

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oh yeah before you throw it in the ocean lets talk

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