UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Eickhorn SA Dagger - what's your opinion?

Ok, I know how rough you guys sometimes on edged weapons...but what do you think about this SA dagger? I've had it for awhile now, so I'm not having to make a decision or anything. Just wonder what people think about its condition/value. I don't see any serial numbers or markings anywhere except for the one Eickhorn stamp (pic below), is that normal? Seller didn't even mention a year. Blade has some staining on it, couple of nicks, and for some reason actually feels a litte sharp near the hilt (???) - otherwise un-sharpened and motto looks nice to me. The nut on the pommel does turn if you try. 80-90% of scabbard has brown paint - there is one small rusted area on the bottom of the sheath near the ball.

Thanks!

Blade looks pretty shabby from the pics, scabbard average. Could just be the extreme closeups, which tend to exaggerate flaws... But the motto looks weak, and the blade partially pitted & rough. I like the grip, semi blond/striped. Fit looks good, I'd say $400-$500 street price for this one.

Because of the overall condition it might not affect the value that much, but the scabbard looks like it's from a later period dagger. FP

I'm guessing that it is stamped Wf on the lower reverse crossguard and possibly has a benchmark number underneath.

Scabbard is late(rusting on ball)Like the grip color, even with the mild chipping. ? eagle is it nickle almost looks gilded. I would find a new blade.

Thanks guys. I saw the "anatomy of a fake" thing and just had to make sure. There isn't a stamp on the lower crossguard. The blade does have nicks on that closeup and is pitted with stains, but not on the whole blade. Maybe the scabbard doesn't fit the blade, but for the price it's ok. It was $300 on TimeTraveler. Thanks for the input.

For an Early Eickhorn I would like to see a better fit of the blade shoulders to the crossguard. I would expect to see that on Late SAs. Like the others have said the blade does have its flaws. The grip is nice. Since the dagger has been around the block, would it be possible to take a peek inside to see the crossguards and I would like to see beneath the lower crossguard. But only at your descretion! Best Larry

Blade to crossguard fit looks fine to me, I've seen far worse on early Eickhorns, especially Rohms, no doubt due to the quantity required in a short period of time. The crossguards look like typical Eickhorn manufacture...

Red

I would also ? the fit of the crossgaurds to the handle. It looks alittle jacked around. might be why the grip looks chipped.(possable disassembled and reassembled incorrectly) I would think safe to take apart for a better look.(to learn more)

Okay, so if I take this apart, is there any chance of damaging it or lowering it's value? The screw on the top does turn easily. What would I be looking for if I do take it apart?

In its current condition and it has most likely opened at one time since the tang nut is already loose,,it will not lower the value of the dagger. I caution you though do not use any other tool to take the tang nut off,, if it is already loose then your finger and thumb should be sufficient,, and put it back together the same way,,"Finger tight" You will be looking for Foundry marks inside both crossguards.
It can range in letters to punch points,or even nothing at all. Remember their position as you take them off to put them back on the same was as this was the fit to the handle before you took it off. The grip and crossguards should slide off. If there is a little resistance thats ok,, its normal. A tight fit is a good sign of an unmessed with dagger. If you can take a couple of pics of the inside of the crossguards and a pic of the group mark on the lower reverse guard. This will help those here in helping you to give you good answers to your questions. Regards Larry

Ok, here's 5 pics, tried to get some detail. I'm sure it's been taken apart before, the nut turned very easy, the handle came off easily.











Thanks!

I like what I see for markings, I guess your next thought is to replace the blade and scabbard (to correct time period)

So, you're saying it's made from different parts?

I agree with Brian the Foundry marks are good and even the tang marking. The blade is the correct time period which is between 1933-1935 after that the RZM started to use their control numbers along with the Logo and further down the road in years the logo totally disappeared along with the original craftmanship,, leaving just an RZM number. there is a great reference library on the right hand side of this page on the upper part of this page. You will see a list of makers and RZM numbers,, very useful tool.
The scabbard is a late period scabbard as they were painted and not anodized. Here is a good link recently posted showing what anodizing should look like compared to a painted scabbard. Both daggers that appear are anodized.

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=246460#Post246460

Keep your eyes open and eventually an early model scabbard will show up, but its not common.
What is the group mark on the back of the lower crossguard? , no picture is necessary. Hope this helps best regards Larry

There are no numbers on the outside at all. So, is it just the scabbard that's out of place? Does the blade match the rest of the dagger? Brian said replace the blade and the scabbard.

Known to the Germans who made the daggers as a “brüniert” type of finish. Being a brown ferric oxide over steel, the one from Eickhorn from that period was a little deeper and more reddish than some others. And (IMO) it would be better just to leave it as is until a better one comes along.

Because a correct good condition scabbard could be expensive to acquire. And if you get a better quality scabbard with a lot of the original brown oxide finish, then you are going to have to upgrade the blade to make it look like it came together. Or a less expensive worn, (possibly) rusted one, which would match up to the blade. But it’s probably not going to look that good - and where are you at the end of the day?

But that’s just my own personal perspective. FP

Spacy open the link that I posted and scroll down to the third photo and you will see a group mark on each of the daggers.

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=246460#Post246460

These are letters, and an abbreviation that represents the SA district that these daggers were sent to. "S" stands for Silesia and "Wf" stands for Westfalen,, what is the group mark on your lower crossguard?
Although the blade belongs to that period, you could replace it, with a better one,,but finding a decent crossgrained blade by itself is a needle in a haystack, then your dagger becomes a parts dagger and with,,, that the value goes down. IMO I would leave it well alone and not change anything. The grip is a beauty in itself. Scabbards are almost in the same category of finding one by itself along with an Eickhorn Blade.
I always like to echo these words..Regardless of its condition its still a piece of history form the Third Reich period, it belonged to someone and it is very possible it was close by to some high leaders or even Rohm himself!!
One SA I had owned for 20 years had a late scabbard on it and finally an opportunity arisen that I was able to acquire an early scabbard. Its not a Guarantee you will find one but if you dont look,, you will never see.
Dont lose sight of the history of this piece. Its the history behind it that adds character to it!! Larry

A good honest mix and match

Do not clean the grip fittings, leave the patina as it is.



happy collecting.

I personally would not worry one whit about replacing anything, and I think the suggestion to replace the blade was bad advice, or at least advice that is a personal opinion.
It is not what the majority of us collectors would do, I think only someone inclined to try to spiff it up for profit would be thinking along those lines.
That in itself might not be doable, as the cost of a nice matching blade and scabbard combo would not be much less, if anything, than you could expect to get if you Frakensteined it. Then, it would be the luck of the draw if the fittings happened to match up nicely.
All in all, not a worthy venture. It is what it is, and I think you got it for a decent price, especially from a dealer.
Its main attraction is the grip ,,, Might be worth acquiring the correct period scabbard for it. You'd then be able to recoup some of the price selling that one, and it would be a bit more technically accurate with a blade & scabbard from the same period of manufacture.
But I wouldn't make that a priority, just something to keep in mind.

The blade is o.e. I just was suggesting replacing it with a cleaner one of the same maker. Some collecters might think bad of it (parts dagger) but in my opinion I ? how is it a parts dagger when all the parts are of the original maker. Most of use that are buying a dagger in this kind of condition cant afford a full blow mint dagger. I personaly like the challange of looking for parts to make something that was once a work of art hole again. Not everyone is motivated by profit.

Brian

Bravo Brian, that is the best answer I heard all day. You will do well in this hobby. Cheers Edward

There are various trains of thought on this. A dagger is considered "parts" when pieces are used on it which it didn't leave the factory with. Doesn't matter if the parts themselves are all period and/or from the same maker. Hilt/grip fittings are notoriously hard to match up with any given grip. These grips were not all stamped out cookie cutter style on a CNC machine, they are all unique, and personal attention was paid to each one as to the fit with its chosen parts.
You are altering a historic relic, whether the motivation is to make it look better for you own personal satisfaction or profit, I personally don't agree with parting out daggers. Bottom line, a dagger is your personal property and you are free to do as you see fit - I still wouldn't go suggesting to everyone who has a less than stellar blade "hmmm, its ok ,,,, If only it had a better blade".
These relics, by and large, are what they are, and attempts to spiff them up are not only almost always obvious, but can actually lower its desirability among serious collectors, and hence its value.
I'd rather have an honest factory dagger than a put together, spiffy parts dagger any day.

Siegfried B, there are no group markings at all on the crossguard, I saw your pics, but there is nothing on mine at all. I like your description of it's history, and that is exactly why I wanted it in the first place. Not for monetary reasons, but for historical reasons.

Skynyrd, I agree, I am not going to touch it, and will only replace the scabbard if I see one from the right period for sale by itself. I don't want to get on a parts mission that will never end. I got a bad deal on a K98 bayonet from TimeTraveler, but this earlier purchase almost makes up for it (price-wise).

I know the blade is pretty worn, but then again, that's why it was in my price-range in the first place. Thanks everyone for their input. It's greatly appreciated.

I agree Spacey hang on to it, but something interesting has arisen concerning the cross guard with no SA group mark,,,, this would make for great conversation and insight,,,,I am going to go way out on a limb with this thought so everyone dont be so quick to cut the branch off that I am sitting on but since this crossguard is internally marked and looks like an Eickhorn crossguard could this be an M36 crossguard or an NPEA? I know late RZM guards are not marked except for a metal dot seen inside of the guards. Im not up on the NPEA guards. So? what is it? Anyone?...Bueller?...anyone?

Sometimes we see Eickhiorn SA's with unmarked crossguards. Witty, I hope speaks to this in his new reference. The crossguards are absolutely without a doubt Eickhorn as is the grip. The eagle looks fine as does the roundel. Someone played with this dagger at some point forcing it and I think that's what you're seeing as concern about the grip to crossguard fits. IMHO the dagger itself is fine as far as originality. The scabbard has been swapped out.

Thanks Paul for not cutting the limb I owe you a beer when I see you. Spacey,, you got something rare and special take care of it. Best Larry

Some thoughts:

10% or less of SA daggers have no crossguard marks on the reverse. There is no explanation but some conjecture. I'll start a separate topic.

People who collect daggers consider that if ANY part of the dagger has been changed out, then it is "parts dagger". That's if they can spot it .

Although they all look the same from 3 feet away, there are small differences in dimensions in the early daggers that make retrofitting parts very difficult. There is almost always some internal tell-tale left behind.

By all means look for another blade. Buy it only on the condition that it fits with NO internal work necessary.

Treat ALL loose blades with suspicion. Why would a great blade be on its own anyway ? Modern repros are very good these days.

Regards,
Dave