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#243306 04/17/2011 05:36 PM
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Well, Craig's auction just closed and I noted a couple of interesting things here:

- 4 double etched Eickhorn bayonets, nothing really hard to find, an interesting sequence of recon unit dedications, but all 4 etches sold for 600-750, about half of what you would find on a dealer's site for a double etch.

- a matching number police bayo sold for 786.

- a chained NSKK sold for 7,205!!!

- HJ knife, belt and buckle for 560

- SMF Luft1 for 620

- an imperial hunting dagger for 3,950.

These were an interesting combination of great deals and runaway prices.

John


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I was also surprised at some of the staggering bids. A few items were reasonable like the 1st luft but the condition wwas not that great. There were a couple of tunics at the low end that i liked but they made their money and I didn`t bother to bid them up.

I don`t think I saw anything I would have regarded as a bargain but it is an interesting concept for a dealer site and you never know your luck. Having said that people do seem to get a bit carried away on auctions and I have no doubt there will be a few with bidders remorse before they even stump up the cash.


War is when your government tells you who the enemy is.
Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself.
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When I found out the company holding the auction would be bidding on the items as well, I didn't bother even checking it out.

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Originally Posted By: timboo
When I found out the company holding the auction would be bidding on the items as well, I didn't bother even checking it out.


yes makes it all very wierd

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Wouldn't that be considered "SHILL" bidding, Bidding on your own items? I know you can't do that on E-Ban...

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I think what that means is that Craig was bidding on items entered by others. That is fair if he does not own the item and wants to bid on it.

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The ONLY way an owner of an auction site can ethically and in many cases legally bid on items in their OWN auctions is to publicly disclose their intent to do so in advance. It doesn't matter whether the items are theirs* or something consigned by another party. I did not participate in Gottliebs auction so I have no specific knowledge as to how it was conducted.
I have seen rarely seen public disclosure of bidding intent by the principals in an auction house in my 50+ years of involvemet in auctions as most auction owners are well aware of the negative way in which this is viewed.
*However; If the items are in fact theirs this would certainly be viewed as shill bidding with the sole intent to drive up the gavel price.


Below is copied from "7 Rules for Buying at Auction":
It probably should be called the 7 pitfalls of buying at auction!


"Some will plant dummy bidders in the crowd. Or pay 'dummy bidders' to pretend to be buyers. Others will just 'pull' bids from walls or trees. This is fraud. It is justified by the use of a thin legal line known as 'the vendor's bid', which means that a seller has the right to bid on their own home provided that the auctioneer declares this - which is almost never done. Even if the auctioneer does declare the vendor bid, 'dummy bids' are never declared."

While the above deals with unethical conduct at "Brick and Mortar" auction houses the equivelent is easily accomplished at Internet auction sites.

Last edited by jim m; 04/20/2011 12:28 AM.
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So, Craig gets items consigned to him for auction ,,, Then bids on them himself ?
Doesn't sound right to me, if I'm understanding this correctly, for the actual owner & operator of an auction site to become involved in the bidding.
I think he'd do better to create some separation here. Obviously, nothing is stopping him from buying an item outright before it reaches auction, then putting it up for auction if he so chooses.


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JohnZ Offline OP
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I was bidding on 4 items in this auction, watching 5 and did win 2.

The two items that I did not win went for more than what I wanted to pay (of course, duh), one for a lot more. The two items that I won, I got for less than my maximum bid.

The ones that I was watching came in split as to lower than what I thought they would and higher.

So, even if Craig or a shill rigged the bids, I did get two items for less than what I was willing to pay and for less than what I would have paid at any dealer site or even less than I would have got them for from other collectors.

I sure think that Craig's auction, like Military Auctions (which has/had some very different rules and additional fees) are good things for this hobby.

John


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The problem is the average punter bids $100 but Craig because he is getting 20% commission from the vendor only pays $100 on a bid of $125.

Also if Craig bids and Joe public bids higher Craig's bid effectively increases the final price and consequently his commission

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I believe this was originally in the disclosures but later removed:

6. “If a lot is offered subject to a reserve, we may implement such reserve by bidding on behalf of the consignor, whether by opening bidding or continuing bidding in response to other bidders until reaching the reserve. If we have an interest in an offered lot and the proceeds therefrom other than our commissions, we may bid therefor to protect such interest.”

So he was bidding on items owned by others as well as himself.

AJ is correct about the commission.

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Don't know about legalities, sure sounds like a shabby way of running auctions to me.


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And me, but I`m not surprised.


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Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself.
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Originally Posted By: timboo
I believe this was originally in the disclosures but later removed:

6. “If a lot is offered subject to a reserve, we may implement such reserve by bidding on behalf of the consignor, whether by opening bidding or continuing bidding in response to other bidders until reaching the reserve. If we have an interest in an offered lot and the proceeds therefrom other than our commissions, we may bid therefor to protect such interest.”

So he was bidding on items owned by others as well as himself.

AJ is correct about the commission.


there is no defence for this conduct but am sure we will hear it.

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Even though it's stated upfront. There's still a conflict of interest here. For me, I would never use an auction house that operates like this.

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Perception is everything, but the perception of impropriety or even the slightest hint of it by it's costumers is not a good thing for any business. Maybe if they incorporated an ethics board to oversee their business practices, it might could turn that perception around IMO.

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There simply needs to be separation.
Way too many advantages that an auctioneer can reap by getting into the mix - And these advantages come at the expense of any bidders.
Seems like hes trying to have the best of both worlds, I don't think that will be sustainable in the long run.


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Agreed, complete seperation of owners to include employee's.

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I'm sorry, but I just read this thread. Palbear is correct - there IS no defense for this kind of conduct. None. We do NOT bid on ANY artifacts in the auction. I consider this to be like using insider information to buy and sell stocks. Unethical and wrong.

This rumor was started by Kris Lindblom, who stole OLD copy from some terms and conditions that we used, with permission from another auction house, as we were building our website. Because he's banned from forums internet-wide, he had to resort to spamming as many people as he could. Anyway, this didn't stop us from having a sensational auction. Our polices are VERY clear, posted on our website, and include:

1) No buyer premiums
2) No reserves (hidden or otherwise)
3) Lifetime guarantee
4) Low opening bids

Overall, it was a VERY successful auction. Many items went for retail, others below, and others above. I think it was a nice mix of artifacts, and we've been bombarded with requests to take consignments for the next auction, which is scheduled for July. Stand by for details. Anyway, sorry to those who missed out due to a silly rumor started by a member banned from most forums.

Last edited by Craig Gottlieb; 04/24/2011 12:27 AM.

Craig Gottlieb
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I was interested in a few items but sadly didn't win anything.
I have to admit that I was very surprised at some of the prices that were reached, for example, $ 7000 for a Chained NSKK M36 ????? shocked
However, there were also a few bargains, such as a Luft Voos etched blade for only $ 2850, cool or a cased P/O badge for $ 2650, a stone mint Railway Leader for less than $ 5000 and lastly, an early Paratrooper helmet for $ 4000.
All in all, it is the bidders that decide to pay whatever makes them happy.

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JohnZ Offline OP
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Pat, I noticed the same thing, which is why I started this thread.

Like any auction, sometimes the action gets way too heated and silly prices (like $7k for a chained NSKK) happen. But, that is why we have maximums to our bids, isn't it?

I saw 4 items in this auction that I liked and would take into my collection if I could get them at reasonable prices (reasonable compared to what I thought that I would have to pay to dealers and to other collectors). I also was watching a medal that I didn't want to bid on, but was interested in seeing how the bidding would go.

I bid a maximum amount on each item. The two that I won, I paid less than my maximum for each and I never did have the option or the need to adjust my max bid. I got both, both Eikchorn etched bayonets, at about 50% of the retail that I would have had to pay for either from any dealer on GDC or elsewhere.

The two items that I didn't win, I did up my max once on each. One of them went for a couple of hundred dollars over my last bid (and I still regret not going further since it still went for way below what I had seen these things advertised for elsewhere). The 4th item went for way more than what I had wanted to pay.

So, I will be bidding again on the next auction if Craig has items that I like (and I am sure that he will).

The pluses for me are no extra fees, unlike many other auctions (take a look at the minimums and the fees and the conditions attached to Herman Historica and compare to Craig's).

If most of you stay away from Criag's next auction, that will be good for me and will keep bidding competition down.

BTW, I am not Craig's friend, his lover nor his biggest fan, but I do appreciate his deals, when I can get them.

John


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After reading the posted terms and conditions, and with Craig's explanation, I think we can all relax concerning the integrity and honesty of his auctions. Unsubstantiated rumors can really hurt an auction of this type and avoiding it makes for some great deals for the next group of bidders wink


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The funny thing is, that paratrooper helmet was my helmet, and so was the PO observer (two of the things that went for a real bargain). Oh well, I guess that answers the question about shill bidding from the house, at least! As for people staying away - we actually crashed the server at the end of the auction, so I'd say it was well attended (don't worry - we will be upgrading). Consignors were very pleased, because although some of their items went for less than they'd hoped for, others exceeded their expectation, so the formula "worked" for them. I'm glad I got a fair hearing here and was able to clear up the "house bidding" rumor once and for all. I do look forward to serving the collector in the years to come.


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Craig thanks for clarifying the misunderstanding about your auction and good luck with future ones

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No problem, AJ. Glad to help.


Craig Gottlieb
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Hey Craig;
I won a firearm and Paypal paid on this last auction of yours (end date 4/16/11) and was wondering about how long it might take to ship?
Semper fi
John R. Blair Jr. (aka blairbunker GDC #0238 Gold)

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Blairbunker:

I received my two items here in the Great White North yesterday.

UPS is expensive for both sides (they charged me $35 to clear customs), but they are efficient.

John


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Why would anyone use UPS to ship a piece of militaria out of the Country? Not only is USPS less expensive there is never a charge for Customs Clearance. I shipped a militaria parcel to Brazil a few years back and the cost quoted by UPS was over $70. I ended up using USPS and the cost was around $12 as I remember it.
BTW: USPS flat rate shipping is a real bargin. I just shipped 50lbs in one of their large flat rate boxes and the cost was around $14.

Jim

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JohnZ Offline OP
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Jim:

I hate UPS and FedEx.. they charge an arm and a leg.

And, to make matters worse, they also charge the recipient if shipped to another country.

USPS (and Canada Post) shipping will charge me, at the most $5 plus 5% of the declared value. The other rip off guys will charge $20, plus, plus. In the case of the above items, I paid UPS an additional $35 over and above what I paid to Craig to have him ship it out to me.

And, if things go wrong, having the federal system in charge of the items in both countries makes it a lot safer.

John


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John:
The last time I remember shipping anything out of the Country it was a SA dagger to Norway. I listed it on the Customs declaration as "antigue cutlery" with a nominal value and it shipped without any problems. I don't remember the exact cost(around $20 I think) but it was a little high due to the signature and tracking requirement of my insurance company.
Jim

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Originally Posted By: Craig Gottlieb
I'm sorry, but I just read this thread. Palbear is correct - there IS no defense for this kind of conduct. None. We do NOT bid on ANY artifacts in the auction. I consider this to be like using insider information to buy and sell stocks. Unethical and wrong.

This rumor was started by Kris Lindblom, who stole OLD copy from some terms and conditions that we used, with permission from another auction house, as we were building our website. Because he's banned from forums internet-wide, he had to resort to spamming as many people as he could. Anyway, this didn't stop us from having a sensational auction. Our polices are VERY clear, posted on our website, and include:

1) No buyer premiums
2) No reserves (hidden or otherwise)
3) Lifetime guarantee
4) Low opening bids

Overall, it was a VERY successful auction. Many items went for retail, others below, and others above. I think it was a nice mix of artifacts, and we've been bombarded with requests to take consignments for the next auction, which is scheduled for July. Stand by for details. Anyway, sorry to those who missed out due to a silly rumor started by a member banned from most forums.


appreciate the post and confirmation , hopefully clears up the obvious misconception here

PAUL

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Originally Posted By: jim m
Why would anyone use UPS to ship a piece of militaria out of the Country? Not only is USPS less expensive there is never a charge for Customs Clearance. I shipped a militaria parcel to Brazil a few years back and the cost quoted by UPS was over $70. I ended up using USPS and the cost was around $12 as I remember it.
BTW: USPS flat rate shipping is a real bargin. I just shipped 50lbs in one of their large flat rate boxes and the cost was around $14.

Jim


I don't understand why the USPS is so much cheaper than UPS or FedEx for shipping when the USPS sometimes uses both UPS and FedEx to ship items.I've seen both UPS and FedEx picking up and delivering packages to my local Post Office.

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Can't answer that Rich:
However; The USPS small flat rate box which will easily hold most daggers as an example; ships anywhere in the United States for $9.05 . As I stated earlier I shipped 50 pounds in a large flat rate box from Arizona back East for $14.00 or so a couple of weeks ago. I quit using FED EX or UPS for anything other than handgun shipments several years back.
Jim

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VERY Professional indeed!
Thanks Craig!!!

Dear JOHN R. BLAIR JR - CUSTOMER,

This ship notification is being sent to you by the U.S. Postal Service® at the request of CRAIG GOTTLIEB. If the "Shipped To" address information is not correct, please contact the Shipper.
A package with a Click-N-Ship® label created on usps.com containing the following information is scheduled to be shipped on 04/28/2011.
From:CRAIG GOTTLIEB
CRAIG GOTTLIEB
722 GENEVIEVE ST STE H
SOLANA BEACH CA 92075-2061
Shipped to:
JOHN R. BLAIR JR - CUSTOMER
XXXXXXX HUNTING SToreS (Yes the best HUNTING is in MS)
Some Where Road (sic.)
A Place in MS 12345-6789 (a nice place to be sure)
Type of Service: Priority Mail Regional Rate Box A
Label Number: 123456789-000000 (not the real # by the way)
To check on the delivery status of your package, please go to Track and Confirm at www.usps.com.
Thank you,
United States Postal Service®

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Originally Posted By: Rich Yankowski
Originally Posted By: jim m
Why would anyone use UPS to ship a piece of militaria out of the Country? Not only is USPS less expensive there is never a charge for Customs Clearance. I shipped a militaria parcel to Brazil a few years back and the cost quoted by UPS was over $70. I ended up using USPS and the cost was around $12 as I remember it.
BTW: USPS flat rate shipping is a real bargin. I just shipped 50lbs in one of their large flat rate boxes and the cost was around $14.

Jim


I don't understand why the USPS is so much cheaper than UPS or FedEx for shipping when the USPS sometimes uses both UPS and FedEx to ship items.I've seen both UPS and FedEx picking up and delivering packages to my local Post Office.


Could be the reason USPS is swimming in the red? They don't know how to price their product costs?


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and Walther PP #975557
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Joe:
You have a very valid point here and unforunately one where I don't have an answer. All I posted on was the experiences I've had with the various shipping entitiies I've had personal experience with.
If anyone has other experiences please post your observations.
Jim

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One reason is that USPS stops at the border, and the respective country takes over at the expense of their own taxpayers, while the 'private' shippers carry it all of the way to the ship to address.
Hope this helps


....tj



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Just as a quick up here;It's been reported that USPS lost $2,000,000,000 in the first quarter of 2011. Yes that's 2 Billion dollars.
Ask yourself something. When was the last time you wrote and mailed someone a letter or paid your bills by mail? I think the decline in 1st class postage due to the Internet and cel phone technology is what is eating them alive.
Jim

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Sure it is. I haven't seen a mailed bill in some time, or even a mailed bank statement.


....tj



"Never type faster than your abilaty to comrehend werds"
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