UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum NSKK Damascus blade

What do You think - good or bad ?

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Looks good to me Piotrek, but I am no expert in Damascus blades. BTW. Do you know that they produce those blades till date? With no motto though

Here's another damascus - this time guaranteed original ...(as per description) If something is to good to be truth - probably isn't.

Also I noticed ageing looks decent on your blade - at least it fits the scabbard and the crossguards.

Like others, I am no expert on damascus, but the workmanship, motto and pattern of the metal are impressive. My impression is that it is of the TR period.

Yes there are even a few RZM marked Damascus SA's.

Come on Paul tell us what are Your thoughts about this SA dagger and its blade ?

My friend I do not consider myself an expert on damascus. What little education I have on these has cost me dearly in some very expensive mistakes. I tend to learn to do it right by doing it wrong first!
I do like the maker mark, well at least it's not one that I've seen reproduced before. I think this one has a chance of being right.
There a couple guys here that are way better than me. Hopefully they will participate...

Gottlieb, have you looked at the tang to see if it's marked?

not yet but i will - the dagger is not mine right now but it is on hold for me.

Current owner knows nothing about the daggers so I will not force him to unscrew it.

When we will meet i will make a hand inspection by myself.

By the way how the tang should be marked ?

What you have here is,IMO, an acid etched
blade simulating damascus forged steel
The pattern is too uniform with no variation
in pattern depth to be otherwise.
Seiler

The tang could be marked in a variety of ways. Could just be a number. Could also be initials, "damast," or a name. May not be marked at all.

I would like James (DAMAST) to have a look for his input on what kind of Damascus he thinks it is. But from what I think I'm seeing, it's actually Damascus steel. When I took a closer look inside the etching. I see what looks like the same etched "grain" pattern inside it, that looks like it's continued right beside it on the surface.

Pretty amazing stuff I think, with nice neat even borders and bottoms, when compared to the (so called) "Hühnlein" NSKK daggers by Eickhorn. FP

I agree it appears to be genuine damast.

quote:

Here's another damascus - this time guaranteed original ...(as per description) If something is to good to be truth - probably isn't.

Blade of the chained dagger posted by M|ke_PL is 100% fake. I mean it, I saw the tang. Let's see what price it will reach. I bet the owner will be happy with 20% of the real one
As for Henckels: To see the tang photo is a must. It IS amazing the damascus pattern is EXACTLY the same as on Hühnlein dagger. There is no 2 identical fingerprints yet.
After the blank damascus blades for SA, LW, Army appeared on ebay, it was obvious that new generation of "special daggers" would arrive.

The blade is damascus. Would have to see this thing 1st hand and would have to disassemble for sure...You cannot spend much on it.. Regards: James

I have big doubts about this blade/blades

I am far from an expert on Damascus so I will go out on a limb and say I do not like this blade.
Best Wishes,
Bob

For sure the blade is damascus,
I quite like what I see, unusual to see just the twins on the back as a maker mark, most but not all blades in my experience feature the name JA Henckels as well.

Gary

I have a couple of damascus bits, all mine are Eickhorn Honor Daggers so I have never had a Henkels one but these are my thoughts.

1. The dedication and makers marks should be raised. From these pictures they look like they are engraved into the blade???.
2. I would have also expected the makers mark to be fire guilded.
3. The guilding looks more like leaf to me as it should be a very shiny bright gold colour.
4. There is no wear to the guilding and normally it has worn down from normal scabbard removal. Again if it is engraved not raised this would explain this.

Need to have a good look at the tang but I would suggest on balance there is a very good chance it is fake.

My apologies for forgetting my manners. New technology, please permit me to introduce you to Old technology.

PS: I’m fairly certain that it is not raised. From what look like shadows on the left side - especially with the “... lles fü ..” in the first image posted.

FP

I'm almost sure that "Henckels" motto is deep (etched) not a raised one. Even if gold finish to the letters looks quite convincing, there is too many question marks:
1. Why the damascus pattern lines are identical to "Hühnlein" NSKK dagger by Eickhorn pictured in reference book?
2. Why the distance between motto and crossguard is bigger than usual? (looks like Eickhorn Röhm)
3. Did Henckels produce damascus SA blades at all? Anyone there who's seen them before? (don't think so...)

I don't think the motto and trademark are raised, but this would not be an honor dagger and it's not an "Eickhorn." I don't know whether it's "real" or not, but is it not possible to have a period damascus blade with an etched or engraved motto? My knowledge is limited, but I thought any manufacturer could order an etched or damascus blade if the customer desired one. If "real," I would think the blade was subcontracted for manufacture, not made "in house." It may also be the original owner, or someone else, ordered the blade directly from the damast smith. I would also speculate the blade was to replace the polished one at some point in time for unknown reasons and that it is unlikely, though not impossible, the dagger came directly from the factory with this blade. Hopefully, the tang will shed greater light on it.

quote:

Originally posted by 777:

1. Why the damascus pattern lines are identical to "Hühnlein" NSKK dagger by Eickhorn pictured in reference book?

This to me, is the most troubling aspect of this damascus blade.
There can never be two perfectly identical damascus pattern but these two damascus blades are obviously identical

Now, the big question is, why is it so ?
Simply because it is...........FAKE.

Anyone thinking otherwise will need some serious debating to prove his point.
This is actually one of the most serious discovery in the now infamous "Huhnlein NSKK" saga.
It now proves without a doubt IMO that many, if not most, Huhnlein NSKK daggers are highly controversial.

Like I said I only have Honor daggers and they have raised dedications and makers marks. I know and accept that there are variations and accepted reasons for some pieces.

But I have to say I 100% agree with Pat on this, how on earth can you get a completely identical Damascus pattern. Maybe similer but its identical???? and from a different maker?.I mean they are hand made and the way they are finnished would mean that even slight variations in treatment would change the pattern and depth.

The law of probability says its 99999.99% against IMO.

Maybe its a ground Huhnlein???? or someones collection of NSKK blades are now more valuable as Henkels SAs???.

Or it could be the exact same blade removed and re worked from the chained NSKK?

Original Eickhorn Honor daggers are Quite rare. The Damascus blades on these daggers are about as close to a Damascus (mass production) dagger as you can get. The Damascus blade material could be provided by a smith or a outside steel forging house that provided blanks..These blanks were dropped forged in dies.Now about the blade that started this.. Guys please read the thread there are NO two blades alike... Fred in his post is comparing the same blade.....
This blade in this post is very suspect. I have seen a SA Honor dagger with a Henckels Damascus blade before (was it real???) (very strange)
Sometimes I feel as this forum is a big (testing ground.)

Hi DAMAST I'm not testing the ground. My knowledge about damst blades is very limited. The dagger I give You to discuss I offered to me and the sellers knowledge about the daggers at all is totally zero.

The dagger was found in western part of Poland by the old guy in his own house where the germans durring the WWII used to live. Now he wants to sell it and the price is very reasonalbe. If it was a dagger seller I would be more suspicious but in this situation .... ??

Tell me what to do - take risk and buy it or leave it and run away ?

I would pick it up in person but this would not help I guess because I have no damast experience...

If it's really out of woodwork from the old guy with no knowledge and the price is reasonable (depends also what do you mean), I'd give it a try. After all the other parts are genuine.
I don't know the full story, but still, I'd be carefull. I've heard to many sensational stories about stuff being found "in the barn by a farmer", that whenever I hear something like this I'm getting more doubts. Behind the old guy, there can be his nephew who's into militaria, got fake dagger somewhere and now looks for a $ucker. Anyway, I believe the "old fox" like you will not be easy to cheat.

After a "mind storm" I passed on this piece. It is back for sale so other can jump on it :-).

After so many years of collecting I preffer TEXTBOOK examples.

tahnks for all Your inputs !!!!

First, If I caused some confusion I sincerely apologize. It was my intention to better illustrate what was looking like “grain” via black and white - contrasted with the original color image. If the blade “grain” matches a published picture in a book, that is another matter, and ties in with some of my thoughts.

So many good points have been it’s going to be hard to capsulize them. But “gold” is “gold”. With the only thing that can really change it being what is underneath which can scatter the light.

And if the “grain” lines do exactly copy those in a book, that suggests artificial Damascus. Which is where it gets interesting, because not only can a laser “etch” the motto. It could also be used to help make the “grain” pattern instead of (or in conjunction with) a conventional acid mask. Which could be an operation subsequent to the motto (but I really need to do some work on the sequence of events and feasibility as it's only a concept at the moment). Followed up (of course) like the post manufacture acid baths with some of the “Hühnlein” blades. l would also mention in passing that the scabbard here looks like it might be a repaint.

quote:

Sometimes I feel as this forum is a big (testing ground.)

As for the above thought: I’m kind of getting the same feeling myself. With some of the pictures I’ve seen posted lately “dumbed down” for example to 35 pixels. Not a good sign IMO.

Best Regards to All, FP

Well, it's too bad we can't see the tang after all this discussion. Again, my knowledge of damascus is greatly limited, but I do know no damascus blades can be identical in pattern. The painted scabbard Fred notes would not necessarily concern me since most NSKK scabbards are painted SA examples. The tang could tell us volumes, or could tell us nothing at all.

Grumpy, No argument there. Pictures of the tang, and some more of the blade a lot closer up would really help.

I also don't have a problem with the idea of repainting, but more of what I seem to be seeing in the images. There are some areas where it looks like there is paint over imperfections on the scabbard body. Some runs? How fresh looking it is as compared to the tarnished mounts? But my biggest problem is the big dent in the scabbard body. When I try to look at it closer, my sense of it is that the painting was done over the dent. Supposedly by, or at the request, of somebody who paid extra to have a dagger with a special order blade? My point simply being that the scabbard for me would be another area of interest. Regards, Fred

No doubt the scabbard should be scrutinized during a "hands on" examination. If everything else was "right," a postwar painted (or repainted) scabbard would not concern me much, although it might bother others. I do not have the optical enhancement capability Fred has, so can't get too involved with the scabbard details. I would note, for what it's worth, the big dent is on the reverse. I'm not sure the scabbard would not have been painted over "as is." Some paint jobs on these things were just awful, not always "factory" done or anything close. I think I can see a few chips in the finish. None of this establishes when the scabbard was painted. All in all, it is a relatively minor point, but whatever the paint looks like "in person," could certainly contribute to one's conclusion about the rig. The single thing of most concern is the blade. If it's fake, the rest is pretty much insignificant.

quote:

"I do not have the optical enhancement capability Fred has,"

I’m sorry, that’s my mistake and I should have provided an image, which is easily rectified. While not everyone may make the same interpretation, what I see is a dent that looks fairly deep. Having what looks to me like excess paint pooled inside of the dent, with at least three undamaged paint puddles to the left. And no visible sign of whatever caused the dent breaking the painted surface. With along the sides, what looks like some bare metal spots, which is repeated on the other side. With my point still being, I can understand why somebody who could barely afford a dagger might make do with a bad paint job, using a paint brush or whatever was at hand. But a Damascus blade, real or simulated, is a higher cost special order item. Which I think would indicate more financial resources. With (relatively) low cost factory repair available to make repairs including factory refinishing.

This is just a general observation from information I have noted over a period of time: Even as some original NSKK daggers have "donated" their blued scabbards to "upgrade" SS daggers. Some SA daggers with little or no original finish have become "NSKK" daggers. Because in a postwar setting, black paint is a lot easier to find than the right shade (or shades) of brown. Best Regards to All, Fred

You are correct, Fred, about the scabbard swapping. I,too, have seen it many times. The scabbard paint is indeed subject to interpretation. I agree it would seem someone who had a dagger with a damascus blade could do better on the scabbard. A "flag" to be considered, to be sure. But, there is no definitive answer, at least not based on photos alone. The original owner may not have been all that particular, the scabbard could have been replaced or painted post-war, etc. I would still like to get a look at that tang!

I think it brings some new light to this topic:
All at once at the same auction site where discussed dagger is listed there has been more damascus daggers appeared. There is SA High Leader, NPEA Leader (with dedication for best student! ), Army and chained SS (see my other topic http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/...28099473/m/430108055 ). I'm not surprised after seeing blank damascus blades on ebay...

Here is a variation of the motto lettering with visible “grain”. And a link to the topic where there is additional information. FP

New breed (of fakes)

Is the spine on the blade also a little too pronounced?