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#241189 03/11/2011 03:32 AM
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Hi All,

Got this sword directly from the vets relative today and it has never been clean. It is a Pet Dan Krebs ( early logo ). I know that it is 100% original but I have never seen one with a handle like this one. The ribs around the ss sword inset are flat on each side and do not come flush up to the inset. Has anyone seen one like this before? Can someone expalin why ?

Many thanks for your help.

Glenn

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photo 3

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I've seen that before. The grip dries out and the ebony chips because the emblem is a bit loose.


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Contact me at Vern@GermanDaggers.com
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Thanks Vern for the info , I have looked at it under a loop and it really appears to have been made that way for some strange reason as all flat places on the right hand side are all exactly even and no where else including around the top and the bottom of the emblem is like that.

Thanks again,

Glenn


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I forgot to mention that the grip emblem is very tight and not loose at all.

Glenn


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I'd like to see some more pics. of the whole sword.
Jim

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Hi Jim,

Here are more pics. Sorry for their quality as this is my old camera because I do not know how to resize the pics with my new one.

Thanks for your help.

Glenn

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Glenn:
Is the pommel cap that screws onto the tang missing?
Jim

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Jim , yes it has been missing for many years. My best friends uncle brought this sword back along with some other interesting items. He himself took the pommel off many years ago and I believed him. Do you have a pommel like this one that screws into the sword ?

Glenn


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I wish I could help you Glenn but no I don't have a replacement for you. I'd suggest you get in touch with Tom Johnson as he often has replacement parts. Your sword is well worth restoring IMO.
Jim

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Thanks jim, just curious why flat around the sword inset , all on the right side seem very uniform. were any made this way ? Tom does not have one but for sure I will find one even if I have to buy a Pet Dan krebs police sword. This is a very special SS Sword , as well as the rest of the items brought back by a very special person , and with provenance.

Just wondered about around the sword inset and why it was it that way.

Thanks for your help.

Glenn


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Glenn:
Working from pictures is a challenge at times but does your sword have a removable insert? How about taking the grip off and shooting some additinal pictures of the whole top endof the sword so we can provide more assistance.
Jim

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Glenn:
Working from pictures is a challenge at times but does your sword have a removable insert going down into the grip? How about taking the grip off if it will easily slip off and shooting some additional pictures of the whole top end of the sword so we can provide more assistance.
Jim

Last edited by jim m; 03/11/2011 06:42 AM.
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Jim , the inset looks to be removable. I tried to pull the sword handguard apart enough to get the handle off but have not been able to do so as of yet. I will have to figure out something as so far I cannot get it to move. I have owned other Ss swords before and have taken them apart and none were this hard.
Well I just looked down inside where the pommel goes into the sword and there is a type of rounded nut with 2 slits in it that must first come off that I will apply WD-40 on as it appears rather rusted and later try to find something to unscrew it with.
Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Glenn

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No doubt about originality, including the grip, in my opinion. It's hard to tell if the upper "step" is missing, along with the pommel. Is there a metal cap on the end of the tang? Some of the very early ones don't have them and the insert is not pinned through the tang. If it is pinned, leave well enough alone. Glenn, I would obtain an SS or police officer pommel and have a copy cast from it by a custom jeweler or a jewelry maker, preferably in silver. Some of the original caps were at least silver-plated and some may have been sterling. It would likely be hard to find someone who can cast nickel-silver, but, if you can, so much the better. You could also have one done on brass or copper and silver-plated. A hole would have to be drilled and tapped in the base for fitting to the tang. Any decent machine shop shuld be able to do that. It would be well worth the expense to replace the pommel.

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Just saw your latest photo. It is of very early manufacture. The insert should not be pinned. There are usually two nuts of the type you describe, one on top of the other. It takes a two-pronged wrench to fit into the slits. They unscrew in the usual manner. It looks like some corrosion may make things difficult by freezing things up. You may be able to use a very small screwdriver and gently tap the nuts in the slits to get them to turn counterclockwise. A tiny bit of WD-40 or other penetrating oil may help loosen things up. Once the nuts are removed, the grip should slide off. If it feels stuck, take a block of wood and gently tap the underside of the guard with the wood in place, using a hammer. The insert should be held on by clips on the reverse that attach to the grip wire.

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I'd like to stress the point made by Grumpy above to not try and force the grip off. The SS insert is pinned thru the tang on some of the early swordss and we all saw a sword of this type that was severely damaged awile back by someone who attempted to remove the grip by force.
At this time I'd highly recommend you send pictures to Tom Johnson and ask it he can supply you with a pommel to replace yours that is missing.
Jim

Last edited by jim m; 03/11/2011 07:08 PM.
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It is a three piece construction pommel used only with SS degens. I guess it is easier to find someone who will copy original one than find original one

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Glenn's appears to have the "built in" step fitting, seen on the very early SS swords and some later police swords. The pommel nut on these screws onto the tang, as seen on later SS and police swords. I have one of these early ones and it has two nuts as seen on Glenn's. The second one acts as a lock nut for the first. The emblem on my grip is clipped to the grip wire. It seems Glenn's has the "pinned" emblem, which is secured by means of two prongs on the reverse of the emblem that pass through the grip and a hole in the tang. They are bent over the tang on the other side, similar to a staple. Most early SS degens have hilt construction as that shown by Gottlieb. The Dachau or Muller types usually have no "step" fitting and the pommel cap screws directly to the tang, as on these very early SS degens and police degens.

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I did try with a block of wood as suggested by Grumpy and managed to move it only a little as I noticed the handle moved and the ss inset did not and it made a small crack from top to bottom in the front of the handle. I immeadiatly stopped. Is there any way to have the handle repaired with it still on the sword ? Here is a photo of the crack.

Thanks a lot for all of your help.

Glenn

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last

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As I suspected yours is pinned thru the tang. That's why I cautioned about forcing it at all as it looks like you've cracked the grip. The ends are peened over after being passed thru the tang and are covered by the vertical metal strip on the back side. The only guy I would trust with fixing this sword unfortunately at this point no longer takes on any work.
Jim

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Yep hairline crack. ctually very little forcing was used but guess it did not take much. i removed the back strip and saw no pins folded over at all , just not there. vern said he had repaired some before , your opinion just between you and I.
Thanks for your help Jim.
As I said this is a very special SS officer's sword being that I know who it belonged to and a lot of the history behind it.
Glenn


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Glenn:
I guess I should have been more emphatic in warning you about messing/forcing anything with this sword. Please pay attenion to me now and just hold off for a couple of days to let me see what other options there may be. In the meantime I highly recommend leaving the sword alone. Other members may have some ideas as well. In the meantime would you please post a picture of the back of the grip with the strip removed.
Out of curiousity: Who was the original recipient of the sword?
Jim

Last edited by jim m; 03/12/2011 02:22 AM.
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Of note is the "police badge" logo. This one wasn't used long. "Krebs" switched to the "shield" logo fairly early. Sorry about the crack. My sword appears identical to yours and the emblem is not pinned through, but attached to the wire. Since you are contemplating having the grip restored, the crack should not be a great problem. As to the pommel, although a police pommel may fit and look right, it will be plated steel. Originals of this era are of non-magnetic nickel-silver. Putting a police pommel on would certainly be easier.

Last edited by Grumpy; 03/12/2011 02:35 AM.
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This mounting construction as found like on the first shown Degen is also found on early Degen examples.
The ones with the "ZŁndpille" are for my view Junkerschulen awarded Degens only.

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Here are some ebay parts for sale item number 190510158521

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NCO police sword parts. The officer's grip has been shortened.

Last edited by Grumpy; 03/14/2011 08:50 PM.
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Wow, I can't believe what I'm seeing and hearing advised on this thread!

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Wes , thanks for looking and letting me know. Unfortuantly these parts will not work
Grumpy is correct.
Again , many thanks.

Glenn


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No problem, I just thought the pommel nut might be good for you...

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I wish it had been the type that I needed , if you find anything else please let me know. Mine looks like a regular pommel for a police or ss officers sword except the pommel itself has threads on it and screws down into the top of the hilt of the sword instead of directly onto the tang of the blade.
Again , thanks.

Glenn


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Glenn, if you haven't already, you might email Tom Wittmann (wwiidaggers.com is his site). Although he doesn't advertise parts, he may have what you need.

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Thanks Cliff , I asked him at the SOS and he does not have it. At a loss at the present moment. Thinking about having one made , just unsure who to contact about doing so. Any ideas ?

Thanks,

Glenn


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You should leave this sdegen alone! Replace the pommel cap if you can but, PLEASE DO Not MESS WITH THE GRIP ANYMORE.


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