UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Number on Klass M33

I am in the process (put a deposit down)of buying a Klass M33 dagger it has SS number 139 452 stamped on it. Can anyone help?

Josef Schwirtlich.. He got fired from SS in 1938

Wow, I thought they just made you "disappear"

Tell us more...

I researched this one back in 2007 so there was some documentation with it at one time. There were no photos of him available. Here is the SS Befehls-Blatt that linked him to this SS number.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

Here is a shot of the numbering under the lower cross guard.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

Here is his NSDAP membership file card. He was a late joiner of the party.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

But here is the icing on Schwirtlich's cake. He was Killed in Action and is buried in marked grave in the Ukraine. As I have mentioned in previous posts, these are very rare find. Too bad we can't add a photo of him.

Enjoy!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

Thanks Ross, I take it due to his dishonourable discharge from the SS, he must have been in the Wehrmacht when he died.

Any info on why he was discharged from the SS?

He was probably too racist!

Hi Gents:

Records for his dismissal would have most likely been handled by the SS-Gericht. Some of these court records are in the National Archives, but are not indexed. A common cause for dismissal was habitual drunkenness, but Schwirtlich's case would take some further searching and may not be found on this side of the pond.

Regards,

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

Does anyone know where Bolten is? I guess it must be in Germany but I cannot find it on any map.

Bölten = Belotín in Czechoslowakia

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C4%9Blot%C3%ADn

Thanks Rakra I looked at Germany & Austria but forgot to check Czechoslowkia. I guess Josef must have been a Czech Sudetan German to get into the SS before the war.

I think this will only apply to members who live in or near the Czech Republic, but can anyone let us know if there are, or a way of finding out if there are, any Schwirtlich family members living in the Olomouc region or better still in Belotin.With Kuther's dagger I used an online directory to find his son but I cannot find anything for this one.

I paid off & picked up this dagger today at the Farnham Maltings show(Hampshire,UK) along with it's research details.I stripped the dagger for degreasing & found a double arrow/lazy H tang mark on the blade & what "looks like" an S on the inside of the crossguards.The blade is definitaly a Robert Klaas.Does anyone know if the Klaas crossguard casting mark is an S or something else? I doubt if I could get a decent photo of it.

Hi Sharpe,

could you post a pic of the tangmark?

Thanks,
Gerd

In Czech Rep.........
this will be a hard job,because the expulsion of the germans were started in 45.

Gerd

The tang mark is same as the one on my M36 (Lettering on the blade, page 4 of the thread).As for finding the family it always is a long shot but it worked last time.

I am glad to see that you can get a photo on some NSDAP membership cards, with Schwirtlich's District and even the Head Office (NSDAP-Zentralkartei) cards there is no photo on either.BAD NEWS!

I would have never have believed it but the German WASt have replied to my request for imformation on Josef and it did not take them 10 months! like last time. It is not a great deal but it shows his war service history during Barberossa. I will translate it and pass on the details. Unfortunately there are no copies of military documents just the WASt's summary of them.

I have translated the WASt imformation and done some research on Schwirtlich's units.This what I have so far.When I bought the dagger it had a research file with it showing the man's history with the SS, which is shown at the beginning of this thread.He was a NSDAP member as shown in his 2 party cards one district(Gaukartei)and the other from the head office(Zentralkartei)based in Munich, but as I have said the copies from the Bundesarchiv came with no photo on either of them.He served in the 9th SS-Standarte(Foot Regiment)based in Stettin, now part of Poland.He was dishonourably discharged from the SS in 1938.He then went back to his home in Bolten (now called Belotin)a small village in the Czech Sudatenland. I DO NOT KNOW WHY HE WAS DISHONOURABLY DISCHARGED, BUT WHATEVER THE REASON IT WAS BAD ENOUGH TO KEEP HIM AWAY FROM THE SS FOR THE REST OF HIS SHORT LIFE, EVEN WHEN THEY STARTED TO NEED RECRUITS.
On the 4/12/1940 Schwirtlich was conscripted into the Wehrmacht and went to Wismar to begin his basic training in the 3rd Company,222nd Ersatz Battalion,152nd Division.His Wehrmacht number was 5172 and his Erkennungsmarke (dogtag inscription)was -5172-3./ Inf. Ers. Btl. 222 .He completed his basic training on the 24/3/1941 and joined the 2nd Company,175th FeldErsatz Battalion of the 75th Infantry Division commanded by Lt.General Ernst Hammer. I now need to do some more research to continue, but it will be done soon.

There seems to be different opinions on what a FeldErsatz unit did, the most plausible one is that Schwirtlich spent just over 4 months doing advanced field training in preperation for the front, anti partisan & emergency front line duties when needed.He left this unit in order to go to the front with the 1st Company, 172nd Infantry Regiment, 75th Infantry Division which was now part of the 6th Army in Army Group South, but he never lived long enough to get to STALINGRAD.
On the 16.9.1941 Schwirtlich's 172nd Regiment moved towards Kiev into a forming up position in the city forest of Kiev, on this advance they encountered some Russian resistance.Once at this position they dug in and recieved fire from Russian artillery.The plan was that the Regiment would wait for the German artillery to soften up the Russian defense line around Kiev and then the final assault by all the German units dug in on the edge of the city would begin.
Schwirtlich was killed in Kiev's city forest either when the 172nd were moving up to the form up position or during the artillery barrage they suffered after digging in there.
His death was officialy certified on the 16.6.1942 at Bolten(Belotin) registry office.I would love to get a photo of him to put a face to the name so if anyone has his Wehrpass or anything let us know.

I have managed to get Schwirtlich's records or should I say his family's records from the Czech Republic Archives. I was amazed they been kept with him being ethnic German & what the Germans did in that country. Anyway it appears that there was a census in 1910 & 1921 & his family are on it. They all lived in Bolten (Belotin) & farmed the land for generations, but in 1946 they were all expelled from the country because they were Sudaten Germans. I guess those family members who survived ended up on farms in Germany or went to any country that would take them, not many would after the war. My plan of finding a family member who still had a photo of Josef Schwirtlich has just become easier if they went to Germany but impossible if they ended up somewhere else. We shall see.
One point of interest in the records was a school annual report, it shows his attendance & grades. Looking at his grades he was more suited to practical work & looking at his Geograhy grade, it was a miracle he found his way to the SS recruiting office let alone the 9th Standarte in Stettin, Poland!

A month or so ago I sent out a letter to a number of Schwirtlichs living in Germany. I got 2 letters back saying they had no idea of who Josef Schwirtlich was let alone have a photo of him. Then today I had an email from a descendant of Josef's older brother who was this man's grandfather. The man is called Manfred Schwirtlich and although he knew a little about Josef Schwirtlich, his uncle Alfred does know alot about their family history and has photos of many relatives. IF I AM LUCKY he will have one of Josef Schwirtlich and if he does Manfred has agreed to send us a copy. So crossed fingers because an M33 or M36 with history and a photograph is rare and desirable piece.

Well it has finaly paid off, today I got a letter with the photo of Josef Schwirtlich dressed in his Sunday best suit with bow tie. This came from his youngest sister who is the only one still alive that had contact with him. Due to her age a close relative called Eduard Schwirtlich copied the photo, wrote the letter of authentication and sent it to me. This certainly would never have happened if it was not for Eduard's help and the fact that he wanted the military history of his relative. Oviously I never mentioned anything about the SS and now that he has kept his part of the bargain I will send the envelope containing his full military career to him as requested. I think we can all guess that if the any SS connection had been mentioned, or if I sent the SS documents first, I WOULD HAVE NEVER RECIEVED A THING. That is the way in Germany, even if your relative never was involved in any racial purification activities. I will post the photo and letter shortly, after finding a working scanner.

great story thanks,,

cheers

emil

Posting for Sharpe...

Congratulations, your perseverance has paid off, a very interesting research project indeed.

Red

Many thanks to Red Baron for his help, after the work gone into getting this photo it is great to see it on the website. I will put the Schwirtlich's family confirmation letter up on the site when I have translated it.

I have finaly recieved an email from Eduard Schwirtlich, he has approached Josef Schwirtlich's only living close relative, his youngest sister. It seems that Josef at a young age went to live with an aunt in the same village (Bolten)for some reason. His family did not talk much about him & she had no idea he was even in the SS! let alone when he joined or why he was discharged.So unless someone has his SS soldbuch or wehrpass from 1938! I think this is as far as this research project can go.
On another note, the letter that came with the photo will not fit on the forum, so if anyone wants to see it give us your email address. The letter translates into, who is in the photograph & me keeping my end of the bargain by sending him his relative's military history and how interested he is to see the documents.

What a great story!
I'm happy for you!

well, you got further than most , with dealing with 3d reich relatives .
don't give up the fight ... no doubt you'll find more information.
jeff