UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum Social Welfare opinions

Hi guys - what do you think about this one? There are so many fakes of officer RLBs and SWs that without a hand inspection it is a minefield. I am tempted to take a risk. Your opinions?

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The pics are not the best, especially the crosguard eagle cannot be seen in necessary detail. But overall, what I can see from the pics, it looks like a period SW (social wellfare) dagger with faked portepee. Sadly the grip has a big "chip". I hope the whole rig was inexpensive as nice conditioned orinals are around.
Regards,

Wotan is most correct regarding the portepee, doesn't even look close to a period original IMHO. As far as the dagger itself, I'm inclined to say it's good but I'm sure a lot of us would like to see a clearer picture of the crossguard eagle & background pebbling. The grip chip is a shame but I'm sure a replacement could be found if you're patient & looked around.

First of all, what makes this dagger to be DRK or Volkspflege are the hangers, not the holes. In my opinion round or square holes depend on the maker, just like screws on lower scabbard fitting at DRK hewer - present on Klaas, lacking on P.D.L�neschloss.
Here, I don't like the crossguard at all. The definition is very poor.
See the picture of genuine piece below.

@777
I got some of those daggers directly from the family of the former wearer. And I have seen a lot of those daggers at small dealers who obviously got this rig short time before and, if you know the certain dealers, also from private sources. In all these cases round hanger holders ware paired with SW hangers and square holes were paired with RK hangers. I do own several wearing pis. Some are so detailed that you can clearly see the configuration which is exactly the same as mentioned before.
In former times nobody knew for sure if such a minute changing detail (eg diplomatic daggers versus goverment daggers) like an eagle�s head looking into different directions could justify different branches. Now period written sources for at least the diplo/gov case have surfaced (definitely: diplomat�s eagle facing to the right, govs eagle facing to the left) and I am hoping such definite insight will be found (beneath experience and photographic documentation) also for this case (RK/SW) in the future.
Regards,

@Wotan
OK, considering your experience in the hobby and the facts you've mentioned I must correct my point of view (even if I've met the opinion of some seasoned old time collectors who do believe in hangers=branch theory).
But what about the crossguard, do you really see no issues?

Hey, it is still not minr but under consideration. Guess your SW crossguard phot is really discouraging from going after the one I presented. Even with poor picture the level of precision is far from yours...

@777: Thank you for your kind words. I also can make a mistake. I only have written down what I have seen and what is my opinion.
Long long ago I have shown such a period pic wherein the certain combination dagger/hanger could be recognized. Due to reasons of copy-violence I would not show this again but you can believe me I do own such photographs within my over 1000 different "..wearing..." photographs.
I also have heard counterstatements eg. done by an experienced collector in a german forum but to my best knowledge he NEVER has shown a certain period photograph and I have also never seen any from any other source.
On the other hand you are totally right with the hanger/branch theory but, due to my observations, there is the additional connex with the certain form of the scabbard hanger holes.
Concerning OverLord�s dagger: If it is not bought already I would highly recommend to overthink this buy mainly because of the heavy damaged grip. It will be very hard to resell a dagger with such a grip damage. Those grips are rare spareparts because if anything is damaged on a RK or SW dagger it is mainly the grip (or the crossguard).
The photograph (from OverLord) showing the part with the crossguard is very blurry especially concerning the crossguard emblem. Due to what I can see from the materials and the plating imo there is a small chance the crossguard might be ok.
Regards.

I dont want to be an expert . Your dagger 777 is P.D.L�neschloss inside the handle You will be able to find P on the pin of the blade.Yours fitting of the shield around the eagle is triangular.Michał dagger fitting looks more rounded fitted to Klass.It is just the teory compare to my disassembled a few DRK leader.Best Ted

Yes, I observed it on Hewers. Always: P.D.L�neschloss ovals have sharp edges (and no screws at the bottom scabbard fitting), while Klaas ovals are more rounded (lower fitting has 2 screws). I have here 2 Leader daggers with square holes and both have ovals with rounded edges. That's why I think the theory about producer/holes shape makes sense. Maybe PDL supplied the Volkspflege and Klaas supplied the DRK with leader daggers, and this way the certain dagger construction is found with certain type of hangers, who knows?
Anyway, the crossguard of the dagger in question is too much "rounded" in every detail.