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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478
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OP
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478 |
Hello, I have two question. I know there are few rarity list for early SA's blades (McSarr, Fisher's quick reference, in Ralf's book). My questions are :
1. Who made them and according which criteria?
2. In some lists (at least in SA/NSKK book) are by every early makers approximately write how many daggers maker made. Where did they get these numbers? You want to tell me, there is full records for all companies, which made SA's?
Best, Lukas.
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Luko,
Mike will post later today how he came up the the McSARR. I can tell you that NO full record, partial record or fragmentary production record has ever surfaced about production numbers of ANY daggers. If any exist, they would be a fantastic find.
Dave
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I bought my first dagger, an SA, in 1972. I liked it very much but could not afford more than one a year for the next few years. Finally ,as my financial situation improved I was able to purchase more. I noticed then that I was seeing so many more Eickhorns or Packs than any others. In 1979 I started keeping track of the relative frequency of the different makers( this was only Early SAs). It was relatively easy then , as there were only a couple of seller catalogs and just the local shows around New Orleans.The numbers grew steadily. Then when the MAX started in about 1984, numbers took a quantum leap- even in the early years I could see 300+ SAs at one show, and mark them down in my little pad. As time progressed , the numbers grew exponentially- I started seeing more and more on the internet by 1991. By 2003 I had gathered enough to make my first analysis. I enlisted the help of a high school friend(PhD in Math) and my sister(PhD, but MS in statistics) to break down the numbers into categories based on relative frequency of observation(1, most common- 10, rarest) This was published as the first McSARR in 2003. By 2006 I had about 9-10K, mostly coming from the internet and big Shows.This was McSARR 2. Finally, by 2009 I had 16,000 SA maker sighting (600 at one MAX alone) and put out the final revision, with approximately equal numbers of sightings in each of categories 2-10- that was the goal at least. Category 1 was top heavy with Eickhorn and Pack in it. The McSARR is a purely retrospective analysis of collected sightings- There is no known record of who made how many Early SA daggers- I feel this analysis is the most accurate because it utilizes 16K sightings, not the only one thousand sightings of the other retrospective analysis- I will hopefully soon show a math analysis of the benefit of 16K sightings versus 1K. In regard to the other lists, I have noted errors in all of them- some were retro analysis with too small a number of occurrences and some were a rehashing of other people's analyses. All have nonmakers listed as definite makers. Further questions can be answered by email or phone(until 8 PM). Mike
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Joined: Sep 2000
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I met Mike about 10-11 years ago while on business in New Orleans and we have been comparing lists ever since. I have a little less than 10K sightings over a shorter period of time. Many of my sightings are no doubt duplicates of Mikes, so it no surprise that we agree on what makers existed and on rarity.
As I said above, no production totals have ever surfaced so all we have is the analysis of what has turned up in the last 30 years or so. The obvious assumption being made is the numbers of each maker counted is representative of the total originally made.
The potential flaws in this assumption are:
1. Many of the daggers counted were in the US. Did GIs bring back the same proportion of each maker?
2. The same applies to daggers pitched in a river, buried, or still hidden in Germany
3. The big variable would be the daggers liberated by the Soviets. Were the maker proportions different?
Dave
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VERY interesting information here!
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Dr McAlvanah is the most knowledgeable individual I know of connected with SA dagger collecting. The depth of his experience with them is mind bogleing. I love to walk thru the MAX show with him as he identifies the dagger makers just by looking at the handles. He is the one that I wish would write a book on SAs and share his wisdom.
Urban B Martinez Jr
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OP
Joined: Nov 2008
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Hello gentlemans, thank you both for your answers. So if I understand correct Mr. McAlvanah counted also daggers from internet and not only those, which he has had in hands?
In other hand, Mr. Hohaus mentioned same thing, which I've thought. Because 1/4 of Germany was under soviets, blades from makers who were in this part of Germany must be very very rare, because vets didn't take it back and soviets soldiers destroyed everything with hakenkreuz. It does mean in this part of Germany could be maker who produced e.g. 10 000 early SA's, but in light of this fact is very rare. And result is he produced many Sa's in fact, but in some list has very high rarity and also number how many daggers he produced is very low.
So if I see this maker made 1000 early SA's, this one 5000, those numbers are results of some statistic math? And not wel-founded. I only want to understand to these lists deeply.
Last question all lists have same background and in fact there is only one list from Mr. McAlvanah?
Bye, Lukas.
Last edited by Luko; 02/02/2011 08:34 PM.
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I bought my first dagger, an SA, in 1972. I liked it very much but could not afford more than one a year for the next few years. Finally ,as my financial situation improved I was able to purchase more. I noticed then that I was seeing so many more Eickhorns or Packs than any others. In 1979 I started keeping track of the relative frequency of the different makers( this was only Early SAs). It was relatively easy then , as there were only a couple of seller catalogs and just the local shows around New Orleans.The numbers grew steadily. Then when the MAX started in about 1984, numbers took a quantum leap- even in the early years I could see 300+ SAs at one show, and mark them down in my little pad. As time progressed , the numbers grew exponentially- I started seeing more and more on the internet by 1991. By 2003 I had gathered enough to make my first analysis. I enlisted the help of a high school friend(PhD in Math) and my sister(PhD, but MS in statistics) to break down the numbers into categories based on relative frequency of observation(1, most common- 10, rarest) This was published as the first McSARR in 2003. By 2006 I had about 9-10K, mostly coming from the internet and big Shows.This was McSARR 2. Finally, by 2009 I had 16,000 SA maker sighting (600 at one MAX alone) and put out the final revision, with approximately equal numbers of sightings in each of categories 2-10- that was the goal at least. Category 1 was top heavy with Eickhorn and Pack in it. The McSARR is a purely retrospective analysis of collected sightings- There is no known record of who made how many Early SA daggers- I feel this analysis is the most accurate because it utilizes 16K sightings, not the only one thousand sightings of the other retrospective analysis- I will hopefully soon show a math analysis of the benefit of 16K sightings versus 1K. In regard to the other lists, I have noted errors in all of them- some were retro analysis with too small a number of occurrences and some were a rehashing of other people's analyses. All have nonmakers listed as definite makers. Further questions can be answered by email or phone(until 8 PM). Mike Hats off, Mike!
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Luko,
Here is where I counted daggers:
- I saw at a show in person
- That were in two printed catalogs - JRB and TW. I visited both gents and looked through older catalogs before the internet and avoided duplication by cross checking stock numbers
- That were shown on the internet sites of reputable seller who showed clear pictures. Gailen David, Gambino (RIP), Bill Shea and the like.
- Ebay Auctions that clearly showed the trademark.
And NO, all lists do NOT have the same background ! Mike counted 16000 daggers over many years and came up with the only list that I trust. I had more time to look at the internet, started much later, and counted under 10000. I agreed with him and never bothered to do my own public list.
Mr. Fischer (sp?) told me at the MAX in 2002 or 2003 that he had seen or internet viewed all of 1000 daggers to establish his scale. His list included a few that never made SA daggers. Ralf ? someone who speaks German should ask him and get a detailed answer about how many he viewed, counted and how the math was done
Dave
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The scale included in Ralf's book uses swedish Nakidatrading.com list. This list is made by our fellow member Nakida - Sam from Sweden, and is based on McSARR list. Sam has got permission from Mr.McAlvanah himself to use his long years research.
I hope I've made it clear.
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Another commonly asked question is how do I know that I have included ALL the SA makers. Well, I dont for sure,as there could have been a tiny cottage company that made only a few daggers and then ceased production. However the longer time passes and no new makers appear, the better, and the less likely there remains a hidden maker. It has now been 10 years since the last previously unrecognized maker has surfaced, although there is always a chance one can appear. I listed some possibles on the final McSARR, and would greatly appreciate anyone finding a previously unrecognized maker letting me know. Thanks, Mike
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Bought my first SA in 1957. I believe the individual with the most experience and knowledge on SAs makers and manufacturing techniques, no offense to Dr. Mike, is Joe Pankowski. He has had more SA Daggers run through his hands than anyone else in this hobby to date and maybe in all time. Joe kept great notes on SAs and, I believe, has given this information to Tom W. and D. Hohaus. More years of experience in this hobby than anyone else I know.
MAX CHARTER MEMBER
LIFE MEMBER OVMS
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,098 Likes: 99
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,098 Likes: 99 |
Ron,
100% correct. Joe Pankowski has provided a lot of great information as he has kept various lists for a long time. Lots of information that TW will use. Joes's approach is in the details but nothing he has sent me conflicts with Mike's MCSAAR.
Dave
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Joined: Oct 2001
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Yup those in the hobby before the internet know Joe was the guy to ask, despite the internet he still is the guy! Awesome guy and very willing to share. I see even the most experienced leaders in the hobby go to him when they need an opinion.
Joe is is the most knowledgeable guy I have ever met on the subject of German daggers.
Dr Mike, well you Sir are a credit to the hobby and the Patron award beside your name is well deserved. I too have owned a few SA's and agree with your list.
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I haven't used Mikes list in a bit. But my definition of "a bit" was yesterday. A fellow collector stopped over and had some dagger question inre. to rarity.  Jim
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Post removed.
Last edited by Vern; 02/19/2011 04:06 AM.
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