UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Chained SS from the depths of my safe

Hi folks,

Time has come to bring some things in to the sunlight. Ive had this for a long time and it may be time to trade Santa for some christmas presents.

Pls take a look and let me know if there are any concerns. The only thing I noticed is the scabbard screw has been turned.

The ball is fine, blade good with deep motto.

I see these on the dealer sites for 9-12K but the "collector retail" is what around

7-8K???

Thanks for any info.

1

2

From the photos, possibly a Ground Rohm 33 that is upgraded when the SS member got his required 3 years in or became an untersturmfuhrer.

I would put the scabbard vintage a little bit later than the actual dagger year constructed.

JR, what do you mean by "a little bit later than the actual dagger year constructed?"

I think JR means that when this dagger left the factory it would have had a normal scabbard (not chained) and when he had done his 3 years in or became an untersturmfuhrer then his dagger would have been upgraded to the chained scabbard. I think the term of "field upgrade" is correct for this dagger if it was a ground rohm originally. this is JMO so somone correct me if im wrong.

This is exactly right and I've seen the upgrades constructed in 2 different fashions. One being where the actual chain scabbard was used with a M33 dagger. And the other were only the chain and center band was added to an early M33 scabbard to turn it into a chained variety.

But once again without additional photos from Chumley on the dagger that he shows here, we can't tell if this piece started out as a M33 or not.

Yep, a lot cheaper than buying the complete outfit!

Anyone know what chain style was offered as a field upgrade for these daggers ? combination of fitting metals,type 1 or type 2.. ect.

We've never really seen any company literature advertising the SS chained scabbard by itself for purchase. But plenty of evidence has always existed to know that this combination of a maker marked blade with a chain scabbard has been noted for many years. So the combination of both plated and nickel parts is very likely in both the Type I & II varieties.

If you observe say a maker marked SS dagger in a chained scabbard, and the scabbard has nickel fittings both top and bottom with a Type I chain, this has a great possibility that the dagger started out it's life as a M33 and factory modified into a M36. I say this for 2 reasons.

1st the chain assemblies were sold as a unit consisting of top scabbard fitting, center fitting and the chain. All 3 of these parts would be made of the same metal, ie all steel or all nickel.


Secondly, I once owned a Boker in a chained scabbard and it was evident that the piece including the beautiful anodized scabbard with a ton of lacquer, reeked that it was a M33 with only the chain and center ramp only added. You could see where a craftsman cleanly cut the scabbard ring off of the upper fitting and added the ramp to accept the chain.

That leads to the next question: Before the switch over of the M36 Officers dagger being sold with an un-marked blade, were some of the 1st factory chained daggers made out of existing M33 with in fact maker marked blades ???

Also could the maker marked pieces that we see, actually represent an SS NCO with 3 years of service using his M33 in the chained scabbard ???

JR,

What would you like to see a picture of to shed more light on this?

C

JR,
I think, like most of the collectors, that the Type I chain is the later one. Type II looks to be the earlier one produced.
The tendency on the material used for the fittings was going from nickel-silver to plated steel.
As I observed, the type I chain is always plated steel and connected to plated fittings. There are only a few pieces with plated chain type I and n/s fittings.
Ralf

JR

Regarding seperate availability of the M36 scabbard and chainset to purchase by SS members via the SS clothing counters.

The "Article and Price List No 3 for Clothing and Equipment of the Schutzstaffeln of the NSDAP", published in Munich in 1938 by the SS-VW (economics dept.) lists as item #495 "dagger scabbardwith hanger" @ RM 9.50 ea. Also listed is item #494, "dagger hanger for the SS service dagger M1933" @ RM 0.40 ea.

Based on the above period reference I have always believed that SS members entitled to wear the M36 could purchase the scabbard with chainset to upgrade their existing M33 service dagger.

The first SS-M36 I owned, obtained in 1961, was a Boker with all nickel fittings in a M36 scabbard with "type 2" plated chainset with plated scabbard fittings. At that time, 1961, it did not worry me; in fact in those early days before collector references and with hardly any collectors anywhere to talk things over with, unmarked blades worried me.

The source I quoted above can be obtained in an English translation but is long out of print but well worth the effort to locate.

Barry

Barry thanks for sharing that info. always good to learn new things

Yes, very nice.. Curious what 9.5 RM was the US exchange back them?

Also, is my current ballpark of 6-7K about right??... more?? HAHA

Barry my friend............ great to hear from you on this subject. In 1938 the conversion of dollars to Reichsmarks was 1$ = 4.2 RM's. #494 "dagger scabbard with hanger" was therefore, about $2.25 for that item. I'm trying to remember the price on an SA dagger in RM during that time or before. Barry, so we can put that into prospective with #494, would you also have a listing for either an SA or SS dagger on that same equipment list so we can then compare it to item listed as "dagger scabbard with hanger." Appreciate the help and info.

Chris, Does your dagger have a district mark on the crossguard? I magnified one of your photos and it looked like it was marked with a Roman numeral.

Sorry No roman numerals..

But fairly obvious a ground blade especially with the photos that are shown on WAF. That does throw a wrench into why the ground blade then ???? Perhaps a recycled Rohm blade left over ??

No idea... I can only put the smaller pics here.. on WAF... I can put bigger..

Hi JR

These are the items from the General SS Clothing & Equipment price list No 3 (1938) that are relevant to service daggers.

#489 Service dagger M1936 @ RM 12.15ea.

#490 Service dagger M1933 @ RM 7.10

#491 dagger frog @ RM 1.00ea.

#492 upright adaptor for SS service dagger M1933 @ RM 1.35ea.

#493 dagger loop, black @ RM 0.22ea.

#494 dagger hanger for SS service dagger M1933 @ RM 0.40ea.

#495 dagger scabbard with hanger @ RM 9.50ea.

There are two other items liste which are of interest to SS edged weapon collectors:

#464 bayonet frog @ RM 1.60ea.

#465 bayonet frog for mounted personnel @ RM 1.65ea.

Please note, no bayonets appear on this price list.

I hope what I have provided will be of interest and assistance. It would have been so much better to have the original German text to work with in order to check the English translation I have to hand, even so I have found this translated list very helpfull over the years.

Barry

It was not uncommon for an SS man to use his higer-quality M33 dagger in his new M36 chained scabbard.