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Denny Gaither #235669 12/18/2010 02:27 PM
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Thanks for the details, as You could see we asked this picture, because there are no serial numbers, but assembly numbers typical for the bayonet producer for the lock nut, the grips as You could see are dyed only on obverse surface, this is not typical for german production, so its very possible the light color wood of grips that is clear visible on the previous pictures were later dyed to dark.The finish is typical for middle -late war period and the finish under grips is dull blued not phosphate, as there are many different pictures, i only could say that the finish on blade of 1237 is probably origin, the overall piece should be cleaned in alcohol and then oiled by gunoil and made a picture on sunlight.

AndyB #235693 12/18/2010 09:59 PM
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Richard,

My thanks also for an interesting insight into both of the bayonets reported from Wöbbelin. From what I have seen, both grip interiors seem to have that light/whitish look typical of the late wood grips that were made (presumably) from sapwood. But especially with one set of the grips, there is a relatively strong reddish exterior color. And the blue on # 1237 is closer to what I would expect as well - but to be honest about it, the lighting is really a key player. And there is just not enough reliable data right now with the limited views - just some indicators (from my perspective) that they could be from different batches.

But perhaps the most interesting part of them at the moment are the matching assembly (tang/bayonet catch) numbers. Which are 2,020 numbers apart. And while the “7” and “8” are fairly close. The “3” stamps are significantly different. Which at a minimum, indicates either different work stations, or the passage of enough time to necessitate replacements.

Best Regards, FP

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FP & Andy,

I am not an expert at taking pictures and have no access to sophisticated equipment & lighting. From what you are both saying, the finish is of a blue type of some sort not phosphate. The outer surfaces of the bayonet do not look as blue as the scabbard & or bayonet blade.

A question? How many bayonets have you seen where the numbers, dates & manufacturers stamps have been scrubbed off of the bayonets and scabbards?

Why was such extreme rework done at this period in the war?

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Forum,

After reading Andy's post about cleaning the bayonet in alcohol, I had a thought. These bayonets were taken from an SS Weapons Depot. Could they have been coated with some type of preservative oil that has now hardened over the last 60 years? That would explain the differences to me of the parts such as the internal flash guard, & tang that look blue and were protected by the grips etc.

Richard K

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There is certainly not phosphate on blade (1237) and under tangs, the finish of scabbards are more like matted and looks not in this light like typical blue, more as dull blue. The scrubbed markings is not so rare seen, mainly in late war period, the serials there were probably not stamped, there is only remains of series letters on bards, the cof other side we dont saw to this time, but You should compare the thickness of blade with other normal cof43 piece, same as You could compare the finish of the piece. Certainly the wood grips were dyed from obverse, which is not typical. I personally dont believe the 45 are dates on inside of grips.best regards,Andy

AndyB #235792 12/20/2010 05:19 PM
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Richard,

From a not very good picture* that I took 10(?) years ago. Here is a typical no-oil/no-grease phosphate finish on a U.S. WW II era M-4 bayonet blade. The finish is a crystalline layer on the steel. In the image: the crystals have being flattened and smoothed by the scabbard inserts when the blade was taken out. And put back in. The Germans used an older process but the end result is still basically the same, just not as pronounced.

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* I have lot of problems with imaging myself. But if I need to specifically illustrate a point I might have to take a lot of pictures (but just keep one or two). And I keep shifting my position to try and catch the light just right. Which is why the one on top is “washed out”. But the bottom one shows the bluing reasonably well along with the final grinding. And the same type of grinding underneath a matte gray phosphate finish. And side by side IMO is best for comparisons, because the lighting should be relatively equal for the items being imaged.

Best Regards, FP

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WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
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WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
Denny Gaither #235803 12/20/2010 08:31 PM
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Denny,

Thank you for posting the new pictures of the SS Bayonet.

Richard Kuchta

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FORUM,

SS Bayonet with Accountability #735 is an example of a blanko bayonet with a Crude Camp Made Scabbard. The scabbard exhibits very crude peening on the seams that are to deep to even clean up. Note the frog stud is large without adequate bevel to allow entry into the frog. Also the frog stud tends to rotate.

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

Perhaps you might have some text books on SS Camp Made Bayonets that would readily show the rework & or assembly of these SS Bayonets. I myself have no such "text book" and I would give anything to have such documentation. The best that I can provide is an actual SS Bayonet showing the quality of workmanship that we have discussed. I would really be interested in seeing any references that are out there pertaining to SS bayonets. Perhaps we are pioneering new territory. There really has not been much new introduced into the field of bayonet collecting in over 30 years.

Richard Kuchta

Richard,

As a specialist in the area. If you had period SS textbooks showing the KZ reworking, and the new manufacture of bayonets I don't think that we would be having this discussion. And I’m flattered that you might even think for a moment that I might have such books. But if I did - why would I have asked:

I to am quite flattered that you think that I might have such documentation. You are also correct that if such documentation existed then this discussion would not be necessary. However, it does not seem that the SS documentation is readily available and we must persist on into the unknown to document the SS Bayonets.

Richard K
“Do you have a couple of 'textbook/best case' examples to look at to demonstrate visually the idea of camp made bayonets - your choice. That you could use to walk us through in detail the process (but it doesn't have to be ultra complicated), to illustrate what you are saying as to how they were made. For both the: "WKC provided blades & components to some of the SS work camps where the bayonets were assembled using slave labor." And the "battlefield salvage" type. I'm curious to see how the pieces might fit together." ??

Because what I was actually asking for were some examples that you could use to illustrate your point of view. With my thinking being that if you don’t have documentation - sometimes the next best thing is “reverse engineering”. And it was more of an across the board (wide spectrum) look at not just the WKC types. But some of the Vz. 24 reworks as well which seem to be more diverse (but relatively ignored in this discussion) which could be as equally instructive.

And it would seem that we are "on the same page" with how to approach looking into how they were made/remanufactured: "The best that I can provide is an actual SS Bayonet showing the quality of workmanship that we have discussed."

Best Regards, FP

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

Perhaps you might have some text books on SS Camp Made Bayonets that would readily show the rework & or assembly of these SS Bayonets. I myself have no such "text book" and I would give anything to have such documentation. The best that I can provide is an actual SS Bayonet showing the quality of workmanship that we have discussed. I would really be interested in seeing any references that are out there pertaining to SS bayonets. Perhaps we are pioneering new territory. There really has not been much new introduced into the field of bayonet collecting in over 30 years.

Richard Kuchta

Richard,

As a specialist in the area. If you had period SS textbooks showing the KZ reworking, and the new manufacture of bayonets I don't think that we would be having this discussion. And I’m flattered that you might even think for a moment that I might have such books. But if I did - why would I have asked:

I to am quite flattered that you think that I might have such documentation. You are also correct that if such documentation existed then this discussion would not be necessary. However, it does not seem that the SS documentation is readily available and we must persist on into the unknown to document the SS Bayonets.

Richard K
“Do you have a couple of 'textbook/best case' examples to look at to demonstrate visually the idea of camp made bayonets - your choice. That you could use to walk us through in detail the process (but it doesn't have to be ultra complicated), to illustrate what you are saying as to how they were made. For both the: "WKC provided blades & components to some of the SS work camps where the bayonets were assembled using slave labor." And the "battlefield salvage" type. I'm curious to see how the pieces might fit together." ??

FP,

It would stand to reason that if the SS reworked rifles & Lugers why would they not rework & or Assemble bayonets. We have seen numerous pictures of the shops using slave labor to work on rifles. We also in some pictures can see bayonets. I have never seen any pictures of Lugers being reworked and or assembled but we have such pieces in collections today. I have seen numerous Czech Pistols that have had the SS Property stamp added to them and were refinished to a beautiful high blue.

Now getting back to bayonets. The work camps could not forge blades because of the machines and skill that was required to produce the blade. However, the work camps could make bayonet grips, flash guards, screws, nuts,scabbards, latches, etc. as well as do secondary finishing. During the period when the SS was in desperate need of weapons they were able to get replacement barrels for rifles & pistols that they were salvaging. Why would the SS not be able to obtain bayonet blanks and finish them with the massive amount of labor that they had at hand. I still can not buy into total blanko bayonets being fabricated for the SS. Also, the rejected blades that were used by the SS would not have been assembled up into a complete bayonet by the manufacturer. I will get into the variations and the salvage bayonets later tonight.

Richard K
Because what I was actually asking for were some examples that you could use to illustrate your point of view. With my thinking being that if you don’t have documentation - sometimes the next best thing is “reverse engineering”. And it was more of an across the board (wide spectrum) look at not just the WKC types. But some of the Vz. 24 reworks as well which seem to be more diverse (but relatively ignored in this discussion) which could be as equally instructive.

And it would seem that we are "on the same page" with how to approach looking into how they were made/remanufactured: "The best that I can provide is an actual SS Bayonet showing the quality of workmanship that we have discussed."

Best Regards, FP

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FORUM,

SS Bayonet with Accountability #735 is an example of a blanko bayonet with a Crude Camp Made Scabbard. The scabbard exhibits very crude peening on the seams that are to deep to even clean up. Note the frog stud is large without adequate bevel to allow entry into the frog. Also the frog stud tends to rotate.

Richard Kuchta

Richard,

I can’t really see it that well in the image to make a 100% ID. But it looks like a 98%, and I am going to guess that the scabbard might one of the stamped ones that were made by A. Wallmeyer Maschinenfabrik (code “can”). Being a welded scabbard that almost always has a ground off marking (if it ever had one). And the frog stud brazing has broken loose. Sometimes from use, and other times by fooling around. Here is an image showing the excess material from the weld with a scabbard which has been sand blasted, and then blued. With some scabbards the welding is as obvious as this one (or worse), and with others you may have to study them for a while to try and figure out if it's welded or not.

PS: Andy has the best data, but the one posted here I believe came with a Hörster (“asw”). But they were not the only ones to use these later war scabbards, manufactured using this production method.

Best Regards, FP

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Yes i believe FP is right on this, the scabbard has typical signs of late war piece, that was welded together, similar were observed in late 44asw, or fnj production, some of with can marked scabbards, the piece have a typical marking of asw production the lock nut is not serialed, the grips are not correct as the fg and one grip is serialed with 21 and the grip is waa proofed , the other piece is not so visible but there should be too WaA. It would be interesting to see if there is a WaA on ball finial, when not i assume is not the can scabbard.Then is probably a correct asw blanko scabbard? Interesting is too the DH on crossguard as it looks like stamped? But probably no possible determine from the picture.What for WaA is on the grip? Thanks.best regards,Andy

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com

FP,

It would stand to reason that if the SS reworked rifles & Lugers why would they not rework & or Assemble bayonets. We have seen numerous pictures of the shops using slave labor to work on rifles. We also in some pictures can see bayonets. I have never seen any pictures of Lugers being reworked and or assembled but we have such pieces in collections today. I have seen numerous Czech Pistols that have had the SS Property stamp added to them and were refinished to a beautiful high blue.

Now getting back to bayonets. The work camps could not forge blades because of the machines and skill that was required to produce the blade. However, the work camps could make bayonet grips, flash guards, screws, nuts,scabbards, latches, etc. as well as do secondary finishing. During the period when the SS was in desperate need of weapons they were able to get replacement barrels for rifles & pistols that they were salvaging. Why would the SS not be able to obtain bayonet blanks and finish them with the massive amount of labor that they had at hand. I still can not buy into total blanko bayonets being fabricated for the SS. Also, the rejected blades that were used by the SS would not have been assembled up into a complete bayonet by the manufacturer. I will get into the variations and the salvage bayonets later tonight.

Richard K
Richard,

That there was KZ involvement in the German arms industry is not in question. And as you probably recall I mentioned a photo of some seemingly never used lathes in Dachau at the end of the war. Himmler's claims of xxxxxx thousand gun barrels made etc. etc. But I think that we have to look at things on an example by example basis. If Solingen makers subcontracted the plastic grips - would the KZ system have made them? I seriously doubt it. And what does it take to make wood grips? First you have to have the right machinery. But what about the wood? Could you just cut down a tree (if the foresters would let you, and the Wehrmacht did not lay claim to it first), and make it into bayonet grips? Or are you going to have to let the wood first season adequately so that it won't warp? And are you going to do it one tree at a time, or in quantity to make it economically worthwhile?

With my point being that what seems fairly simple at first glance, in reality might not have been that viable or easy in Germany 70 years ago.

Best Regards, FP

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"SS reworked rifles & Lugers why would they not rework & or Assemble bayonets." There is important the timeline, i dont believe the SS reworked rifles as Gew98 or Lugers post 1939. Same as i dont believe is real the hypothesis of batlefield salvage bayonets, the period of post 1942 is mentioned as very problematic period, when every month were lost about 50 thousand of rifles and bayonets in war, other point is that the rifles that were in late 1944 produced already have not the bayonet adapter, Kriegsmodell K98k rifle,Stg44, K43, STg45, VG rifles, thats the reason why the 1945 bayonet production is from only 2 firms. The bayonet production was already stopped as not important.Because the material were needed in other important arms production, like by panzerfaust production. The major part of a bayonet is the mashining of rifle slot, which could be done only by special mashines and certainly not by a camp labor employment. There should be used special caibers to made the bayonet attachable on every rifle used by Wehrmacht and SS, the parts as springs, screws and other were done by small firms, not by the bayonet producers, the scabbards are too hard to made by a small works, because You need a special press mashines.best regards,Andy

AndyB #235854 12/21/2010 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
"SS reworked rifles & Lugers why would they not rework & or Assemble bayonets." There is important the timeline, i dont believe the SS reworked rifles as Gew98 or Lugers post 1939. Same as i dont believe is real the hypothesis of batlefield salvage bayonets, the period of post 1942 is mentioned as very problematic period, when every month were lost about 50 thousand of rifles and bayonets in war, other point is that the rifles that were in late 1944 produced already have not the bayonet adapter, Kriegsmodell K98k rifle,Stg44, K43, STg45, VG rifles, thats the reason why the 1945 bayonet production is from only 2 firms. The bayonet production was already stopped as not important.Because the material were needed in other important arms production, like by panzerfaust production. The major part of a bayonet is the mashining of rifle slot, which could be done only by special mashines and certainly not by a camp labor employment. There should be used special caibers to made the bayonet attachable on every rifle used by Wehrmacht and SS, the parts as springs, screws and other were done by small firms, not by the bayonet producers, the scabbards are too hard to made by a small works, because You need a special press mashines.best regards,Andy


Andy makes some good points here. By '45 the bayonet was an obsolete weapon of little use in the war the Germans found themselves fighting. As to "battlefield salvage", well, from '43 onwards the battlefields were left in the hands of Germany's foes allowing little opportunity for "salvage".

Len


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Len S #236059 12/24/2010 07:50 PM
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MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE,

I have a few days off now and will get back to the SS bayonets.

Richard Kuchta

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Happy New Year! very interesting read i must say!


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John C. Jacobi #237118 01/10/2011 01:59 PM
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As we spoke about some fakes, already on german forum other restamped Portugal contract piece with SS in diamond.

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AndyB #237171 01/11/2011 07:07 PM
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A minor variation from postwar markings seen before, the Portuguese contract bayonets have been known for some time as good candidates for added markings. With a very good profit to be made from either lesser quality or “beater” bayonets, that could originally be purchased for next to nothing like the example posted just above.

Here is a period rework, with an added armory rework marking. Which from datable specimens, seems to be seen most commonly on bayonets that would probably have needed some work in the period from 1939 to possibly early 1941. But of course with this undated, no Waffenamt example of a commercial WKC, dating is not as easy. But it's also obviously not one of the "mid-war" period bayonets, being much earlier. FP

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Gentlemen,

I just got back from China last week. Due to my Manufacturing Manager not being able to travel, I was called to take his place over Christmas. Business is now completed and I got back last week. Looks like there is alot to catch up with.

Richard Kuchta

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Richard welcome back from China! Glad u made it home safely. I went thru my 15 or so late war commercial unmarked bayonets both wood gripped and bakelite. I looked under the pommel but did not see any stamps on them. i did not remove the grips for i fear i will damage the bolt screws.

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AndyB #252332 09/28/2011 08:07 PM
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bump.

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There are other stamped WKCs, i have one near Yours in 8XX range, unfortunally without matching scabbard, it is not confirmed it went to WSS, i mean the serialed samples, the flashguard is probably missmatch.

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Sorry to kick up what seems to be an old topic but it seems to me there's still a lot of room for discussion here. Most of you probably don't know me, I'm new to the forum and trying to find some answers about a new 98/05n.A. in my collection. I've been collecting about ten years on amateur level, mostly WW1 german bayonets, I don't collect much WW2 or SS stuff because there are too many fakes out there and the prices can reach sky high, then safer and cheaper to collect WW1 edged weapons, also interesting. The reason I join the discussion in this topic is that I picked up a nice 98/05na weimar rework bayonet that appears to have some SS II stamps on bayonet and scabbard. It was listed as WW1 bayonet, the seller claimed to know nothing about it and it wasn't until I held the piece in my hands that I noticed the SS stamps. I have over 20 books on bayonets and German edged weapons but none of the specify on 98/05's being issued to SS. I've taken a few hours to read this entire topic and there have appearantly been SS men equipped with 98/05's. I've seen SS and totenkopf markings on gew98's before but have never seen them on 98/05 bayo's and I've had quite a few going though my hands in the past years. My 98/05 weimar was made in 1917 by Durkopp and Rich.A.Herder in 1917 and has been reworked, blued, frogstud adapted for 1920 weimar reissue. All seems ok and in nice condition. It has a LAH monogram and SS II stamp ont the blade and scabbard throat and I wonder if these could be original, I've never seen it before. As said the seller claimed to know little about bayonets and the price was normal for a weimar reissue 98/05 in good condition. It came with a plain brown frog with an 90% faded indecipherable makers mark. Here are some pictures below, I'm curious about the stamps and wonder if somebody could have done them postwar but didn't ask more after the trouble of putting fake markings?

Thanks gentlemen, I'm curious about your opinions.

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Denny Gaither #341402 01/20/2019 05:40 PM
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This is already posted twice.

Please use pictures, not links

Dave

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I had bought the Heinz Brenner SS bayonet on a hotel buy from the actual veteran, quite a few years ago. That was in Dallas ,TX. I never could understand why there are not more SS engraved bayonets, there are plenty of Army and Luft ones.
Thanks,
Bob


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bgrelics #347147 06/29/2020 08:20 PM
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In TW's book that encompassed the contributions from many individuals, with some of them very, very enlightening - that the average individual might never have a chance to see in person. That said, it also has some flaws and omissions including the bayonets section that had some indisputably bad information/examples. And unless I'm mistaken the only pictures of a "Heinz Brenner etched SS bayonet" only showed a part of the blade. Best Regards, Fred

Denny Gaither #347149 06/30/2020 02:23 AM
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Fred,

Can you show us the rest of the blade ?

Dave

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Originally Posted by Dave
Fred,

Can you show us the rest of the blade ?

Dave

Dave, The pictures I referred to are two black and white images of a part of both sides of the blade on page 570. If there are others that show more then I missed them. Best Regards, Fred

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Gentlemen,

The Heinz Brenner SS KS98 bayonet by WKC is also pictured on pages 76-77 in Wayne Techet's book "German Etched Dress Bayonets"


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Denny Gaither #347612 09/08/2020 11:53 AM
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Very nice bayonets !


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WW2 Dagger #347614 09/08/2020 02:08 PM
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Here is a no maker marked SS bayonet.

It is a Robert Klaas etch pattern, as seen on page 229 of Wayne's book.

John

Obverse.JPG (32.92 KB, 103 downloads)
Reverse.JPG (28.42 KB, 103 downloads)
Obverse Etch.JPG (33.47 KB, 105 downloads)
Obverse Etch SS Front.JPG (36.22 KB, 102 downloads)
Obverse Etch SS Rear.JPG (35.74 KB, 103 downloads)

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
Denny Gaither #347615 09/08/2020 03:52 PM
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An interesting example. From what I can see the frog is not a correct one for a dress bayonet - does it have SS markings? Best Regards, Fred

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No ss markings.


Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
Denny Gaither #347620 09/09/2020 12:32 PM
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Oh, one of the very rare troddels with six black stripes in the band and one black/two white strands in the acorn! The bayonet really looks interesting and the etching seems well excuted. I would not mind a combat frog on a walk out bayonet because 1 we never know when it was married and 2 when material became bad (-Ersatzmaterial-) I can imagine somebody did use a better durable frog and we know also the oddest combinations from the period.
I am no expert in this but is the font also KLAAS or only the side ornaments or better have we noticed such distinct font in other etchings of KLAAS or another maker?
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #347621 09/09/2020 05:00 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Likes: 18
Wotan:

The bookends are Klaas for sure, the dedication is unique (especially the capital letters, look at that 'D'). I haven't seen that lettering an any other etch so far.

John


Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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