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AndyB #235315 12/13/2010 10:43 PM
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Andy,

I do not agree with any of your statements that you made concerning the 45 dated SS bayonets. These bayonets along with a rifle were returned by PFC DUNN in 1945 as stated on the capture papers. You are making comparissons of finishes based upon no knowledge of what the SS rework specificatins were. You are quick to state post war finish. You are again making comparrisons of SS Bayonets using only your knowledge of army bayonets which in this case does not work. You have no knowledge and or expertise of SS Bayonets. I know you do not have any in your collection because I asked you numerous times and you presented nothing to us.

I purchased these bayonets from the family of PFC Dunn. For you to make the statements that you have made that these bayonets are post war done shows your complete lack of knowledge of this topic of SS Bayonets. You have no knowledge of the SS Property Marks and have no substantiation for the statements that you make.

It was just a short while ago when you had seen 25 SS Nederlands Bayonets with the insignia pinned on the back and you said that mine was post war embelleshed like those that you had seen. However, my bayonet was not like those 25 bayonets you had looked at. You do not even know what the grip insignia looks likeon a Nederlands Bayonet. I asked you to describe the bayonets and you provided nothing.

Your opinions of this postwar embellishment are really something. The idea that GIs would do things to make bayonets more valuable before sending them home in 1945 is really reaching.

If you have been following the posts in this thread, you should have been able to dtermine that SS Property Marks were not readily known about except by some rifle collectors as of about 20 to 25 years ago.

I have nothing against you personally Andy, it is just your shoot from the hip statements backed up by nothing.

Richard K

AndyB #235316 12/13/2010 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
Thanks for adding the details, the piece is dull blued which i believe is a postwar blueing done or the origin blueing as not so good on the rough mashinihg was coated in a unknown solution?, similar finish was never observed by german items, Do you have the SS specifications for the rework and finishing of bayonets?? R. Kuchta

is too dark and dull. The grips are correct of the piece, unfortunally should be serialed with flahsguard or not serialed et all,i believe the DH and 45 markings are new, the overall mashining spures corespond with the blanko pieces pictured from Denny and Klinge in the Eickhorn thread. The pieces started as normal cof 43 production and was not serialed, i assume a normal commerzial contract. the serial numbers were added later, it should be compared of grips and blades that are made by one dies size. The H letter is so called forging letter and corespond with the date already destined by the mashining and the series letters of scabbards.
9719 or what on tang could be the assembly number of lock nut, that should be visible on protruding part by pressing button.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Originally Posted By: AndyB
Thanks for adding the details, the piece is dull blued which i believe is a postwar blueing done or the origin blueing as not so good on the rough mashinihg was coated in a unknown solution?, similar finish was never observed by german items, Do you have the SS specifications for the rework and finishing of bayonets?? R. Kuchta

is too dark and dull. The grips are correct of the piece, unfortunally should be serialed with flahsguard Please show us the SS specification that relates to the numbering of the flashguard and or grips. R. Kuchta or not serialed et all,i believe the DH and 45 markings are new, the overall mashining spures corespond with the blanko pieces pictured from Denny and Klinge in the Eickhorn thread. The pieces started as normal cof 43 production and was not serialed, i assume a normal commerzial contract. the serial numbers were added later, it should be compared of grips and blades that are made by one dies size. The H letter is so called forging letter and corespond with the date already destined by the mashining and the series letters of scabbards.
9719 or what on tang could be the assembly number of lock nut, that should be visible on protruding part by pressing button.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Originally Posted By: AndyB
Thanks for adding the details, the piece is dull blued which i believe is a postwar blueing done or the origin blueing as not so good on the rough mashinihg was coated in a unknown solution?, similar finish was never observed by german items, Do you have the SS specifications for the rework and finishing of bayonets?? R. Kuchta

is too dark and dull. The grips are correct of the piece, unfortunally should be serialed with flahsguard Please show us the SS specification that relates to the numbering of the flashguard and or grips. R. Kuchta or not serialed et all,i believe the DH and 45 markings are new,Based on what knowledge & expertise of SS bayonets do you make this statement. I can show 42 & 43 dated SS bayonets for comparrison. What is your statement based on??? R. Kuchta the overall mashining spures corespond with the blanko pieces pictured from Denny and Klinge in the Eickhorn thread. The pieces started as normal cof 43 production and was not serialed, i assume a normal commerzial contract. the serial numbers were added later, it should be compared of grips and blades that are made by one dies size. The H letter is so called forging letter and corespond with the date already destined by the mashining and the series letters of scabbards.
9719 or what on tang could be the assembly number of lock nut, that should be visible on protruding part by pressing button.

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Richard.

First my thanks for posting the new pictures. And I think that I understand the points that you are trying to make. But look at this image you posted. What do you see? What don't you see? And how does it compare to all of the areas that you say were ground away - which could be a reference check for your stated opinion?

Best Regards, FP

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP

Richard.

First my thanks for posting the new pictures. And I think that I understand the points that you are trying to make. But look at this image you posted. What do you see? What don't you see? And how does it compare to the areas that you say were ground away - which could be a reference check for your stated opinion?

FP,

What I wanted to know is if you could see the type of rough finishes on the bayonet. One scabbard has about 95% of the manufacturer and date removed. You can not see that from the pictures that you have. But this same type of buff grind finish is also on the blade and pommel area. Note that the SS Property Stamp is in Excellent Condition and under the finish. The point is, why was such an extensive rework done to these bayonets when the war was in its last stages. Like the old sayng, "Arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic." These were battfield salvaged bayonets. Why do anything to them. The rifle that Walther sent home was dated 1943 and when I looked at it, the gun was reblued and coated with a cosmoline type grease. I do not know if the Germans put the grease on or if Walther did it.

Richard K


Best Regards, FP

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
What I wanted to know is if you could see the type of rough finishes on the bayonet. One scabbard has about 95% of the manufacturer and date removed. You can not see that from the pictures that you have. But this same type of buff grind finish is also on the blade and pommel area. Note that the SS Property Stamp is in Excellent Condition and under the finish. The point is, why was such an extensive rework done to these bayonets when the war was in its last stages. Like the old sayng, "Arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic." These were battfield salvaged bayonets. Why do anything to them. The rifle that Walther sent home was dated 1943 and when I looked at it, the gun was reblued and coated with a cosmoline type grease. I do not know if the Germans put the grease on or if Walther did it.

Richard K

Richard,

First, these are consecutively matched pieces, so I would think that all of the operations on them would have been done at the same time. And they would have stayed together in the same storage conditions from 1945 to now. I will see what pictures I have that can illustrate what I was trying to say - but let me see if this works. Phosphoric acid etches the metal, it does not leave a bright glossy appearance.

And while the lighting leaves some uncertainty, to me it looks like rust “speckling” (small rust nodules) over a blued surface. But some of what is strange to me is that one of the bayonets has a lot of “speckling” on the tang where the grips would have covered it, including the non-exposed portion of the flash guard. And especially one of the blades is “speckled” when it should have had a scabbard protecting it. And the scabbards look a little strange as well, but I can only see the upper portions, so no conclusions have been made where they are concerned.

Maybe it’s just the photos, and if I have misperceptions they can be cleared up with new photos just like the RZM frog. But for now, I will have to go with what I can physically see in front of me.

Best Regards, FP

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
What I wanted to know is if you could see the type of rough finishes on the bayonet. One scabbard has about 95% of the manufacturer and date removed. You can not see that from the pictures that you have. But this same type of buff grind finish is also on the blade and pommel area. Note that the SS Property Stamp is in Excellent Condition and under the finish. The point is, why was such an extensive rework done to these bayonets when the war was in its last stages. Like the old sayng, "Arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic." These were battfield salvaged bayonets. Why do anything to them. The rifle that Walther sent home was dated 1943 and when I looked at it, the gun was reblued and coated with a cosmoline type grease. I do not know if the Germans put the grease on or if Walther did it.

Richard K

Richard,

First, these are consecutively matched pieces, so I would think that all of the operations on them would have been done at the same time. And they would have stayed together in the same storage conditions from 1945 The bayonets have been together since the war. However, it is hard to assume that the quality of the coating process may have been the same for both bayonets. I do not know the condition of the bayonets prior to rework. I said that I could see a rough finish. The end result of the coating is determined by the quality of the surface of the item being coated / plated. On the bayonet scabbard that is missing some finish I can see pits using a magnifying glass. On the blade of bayonet 1237 I can also see small pits in the blade surface using a magnifying glass. In addition there is a grind gouge on the cutting edge of 1237 that has buff grind marks going through it. The coating is the same on both bayonets. The surface finishes are not. More pitting on 1237. It is what would be expected from battlefield salvage rework done by slave labor. Richard Kto now. I will see what pictures I have that can illustrate what I was trying to say - but let me see if this works. Phosphoric acid etches the metal, it does not leave a bright glossy appearance.

And while the lighting leaves some uncertainty, to me it looks like rust “speckling” (small rust nodules) over a blued surface. But some of what is strange to me is that one of the bayonets has a lot of “speckling” on the tang where the grips would have covered it, including the non-exposed portion of the flash guard. And especially one of the blades is “speckled” when it should have had a scabbard protecting it. And the scabbards look a little strange as well, but I can only see the upper portions, so no conclusions have been made where they are concerned.

Maybe it’s just the photos, and if I have misperceptions they can be cleared up with new photos just like the RZM frog. But for now, I will have to go with what I can physically see in front of me.

Best Regards, FP

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
What I wanted to know is if you could see the type of rough finishes on the bayonet. One scabbard has about 95% of the manufacturer and date removed. You can not see that from the pictures that you have. But this same type of buff grind finish is also on the blade and pommel area. Note that the SS Property Stamp is in Excellent Condition and under the finish. The point is, why was such an extensive rework done to these bayonets when the war was in its last stages. Like the old sayng, "Arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic." These were battfield salvaged bayonets. Why do anything to them. The rifle that Walther sent home was dated 1943 and when I looked at it, the gun was reblued and coated with a cosmoline type grease. I do not know if the Germans put the grease on or if Walther did it.

The bayonets have been together since the war. However, it is hard to assume that the quality of the coating process may have been the same for both bayonets. I do not know the condition of the bayonets prior to rework. I said that I could see a rough finish. The end result of the coating is determined by the quality of the surface of the item being coated / plated. On the bayonet scabbard that is missing some finish I can see pits using a magnifying glass. On the blade of bayonet 1237 I can also see small pits in the blade surface using a magnifying glass. In addition there is a grind gouge on the cutting edge of 1237 that has buff grind marks going through it. The coating is the same on both bayonets. The surface finishes are not. More pitting on 1237. It is what would be expected from battlefield salvage rework done by slave labor.

Richard K

Richard,

Attached is a pair of bayonets by the same maker. From the same general late 1944 time period, showing the transition from bluing to a phosphate type finish. It also shows how the light reflects differently depending on the angle, and the quality of the surface finish. I understand metal finishing more than you might (ordinarily) think. I also know what I am looking at in person, and most times with digital images. Having seen not only quite a few period reworks, but those done after the war as well. And I still stand by my preliminary conclusions that something has happened to the bayonets that is out of the ordinary. Until of course, something to the contrary comes along that shows otherwise.

Best Regards, FP

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Thanks for FP for make a brighter the picture, i believe the 1237 is origin blueing on blade, is very important to make a good picture of them to made a exact opinion. Firstly Richard You dont know how the bayonets were marked by assembling, thats the reason why we could estimate the maker without see the area of ricasso or scabbard where are the maker remains marking. Same as You dont know how were parts serialed by the makers, the bayonets were marked by the maker not by SS or Army, so majority of markings were made by maker, where was only difference by the commerzial name or the codes accepted by Army.
We know already the pieces were made by Eickhorn,so why is the 1236 remashined on blade i dont know, the finish on handle looks like dull, but maybe it should be cleaned and oiled and take photo by sunlight. The Dh on grips are for me fakes,same as 45 dates.The grips should be probably not serialed. I believe both pieces are normal Eickhorn 1943/4 blankos.As mentioned earlier You should compare it with pieces pictured by FP or Denny on the Eickhorn thread.
Thats there are some DH stamped or engraved it doesnt mean it was made by SS, thats the wrong opinion that You are presented from beginn, the bayonets were made only by bayonets producers.

Last edited by AndyB; 12/14/2010 08:43 AM.
AndyB #235355 12/14/2010 12:53 PM
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I already posted bayonet that was used by WSS as they neednt be marked with additional markings, by the mixing of apple with oranges for me is this as You declare it should be same property marking on "SS" rework bayonets like Vz.24 or prewar SG98/05 and bayonets made in end of war like the commerzial cof 43 or WKC late blanko. The bayonets were marked with W-SS marking only in prewar period, not post 1941 when the army material were used too. The cof43 blankos have the origin grips so no reworks, same as the WKC 742 or other mentioned pieces. As they are not reworks it should be not remarked for me.

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
What I wanted to know is if you could see the type of rough finishes on the bayonet. One scabbard has about 95% of the manufacturer and date removed. You can not see that from the pictures that you have. But this same type of buff grind finish is also on the blade and pommel area. Note that the SS Property Stamp is in Excellent Condition and under the finish. The point is, why was such an extensive rework done to these bayonets when the war was in its last stages. Like the old sayng, "Arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic." These were battfield salvaged bayonets. Why do anything to them. The rifle that Walther sent home was dated 1943 and when I looked at it, the gun was reblued and coated with a cosmoline type grease. I do not know if the Germans put the grease on or if Walther did it.

The bayonets have been together since the war. However, it is hard to assume that the quality of the coating process may have been the same for both bayonets. I do not know the condition of the bayonets prior to rework. I said that I could see a rough finish. The end result of the coating is determined by the quality of the surface of the item being coated / plated. On the bayonet scabbard that is missing some finish I can see pits using a magnifying glass. On the blade of bayonet 1237 I can also see small pits in the blade surface using a magnifying glass. In addition there is a grind gouge on the cutting edge of 1237 that has buff grind marks going through it. The coating is the same on both bayonets. The surface finishes are not. More pitting on 1237. It is what would be expected from battlefield salvage rework done by slave labor.

Richard K

Richard,

Attached is a pair of bayonets by the same maker. From the same general late 1944 time period, showing the transition from bluing to a phosphate type finish. It also shows how the light reflects differently depending on the angle, and the quality of the surface finish. I understand metal finishing more than you might (ordinarily) think. I also know what I am looking at in person, and most times with digital images. Having seen not only quite a few period reworks, but those done after the war as well. And I still stand by my preliminary conclusions that something has happened to the bayonets that is out of the ordinary. Until of course, something to the contrary comes along that shows otherwise.

Best Regards, FP

FP,

Please explain the relationship of what you are looking for as to what we are discussing about bayonets. I too am also quite experienced with metal surface finishes and platings and coatings. The products that we produce at our plant must have extremely high finishes or else any imperfection in the surface of the press plates will be transferred into the garments. Platings and finishes are on everything that we do. When there is pitting in the steel the etching chemical enters in and in some cases comes out after the plating runing the whole job.

Please explain what type of comparrison you are trying to make and for what reason.

Richard KuchtA

AndyB #235366 12/14/2010 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
I already posted bayonet that was used by WSS as they neednt be marked with additional markings, by the mixing of apple with oranges for me is this as You declare it should be same property marking on "SS" rework bayonets like Vz.24 or prewar SG98/05 and bayonets made in end of war like the commerzial cof 43 or WKC late blanko. The bayonets were marked with W-SS marking only in prewar period, not post 1941 when the army material were used too. The cof43 blankos have the origin grips so no reworks, same as the WKC 742 or other mentioned pieces. As they are not reworks it should be not remarked for me.


What SS documentation are you citing that states that bayonets and rifles did not have to be SS Property Stamped after 1941. There are alot of rifles and bayonets that ended up getting SS Property Stamps on them along with the WA after 1941. Richard K

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What SS documentation are you citing that states that bayonets and rifles did not have to be SS Property Stamped after 1941. There are alot of rifles and bayonets that ended up getting SS Property Stamps on them along with the WA after 1941. Richard K
Same documentation as You mentioned that they are confirmed WaA proofed bayonets and marked with SS property without seeing any rework stamps.I saw in this thread to this time no real piece that is WaA and SS marked on same piece, only possible thing is the Hoerster 38 without serial number, but i have other opinion, but the only one is stamped DH.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

Please explain the relationship of what you are looking for as to what we are discussing about bayonets. I too am also quite experienced with metal surface finishes and platings and coatings. The products that we produce at our plant must have extremely high finishes or else any imperfection in the surface of the press plates will be transferred into the garments. Platings and finishes are on everything that we do. When there is pitting in the steel the etching chemical enters in and in some cases comes out after the plating runing the whole job.

Please explain what type of comparrison you are trying to make and for what reason.

Richard KuchtA

Richard,

While I am sure that you are well versed in the methods used to make the products coming from your plant, that might not necessarily translate as well to other types of products. And one of the purposes of the the picture I posted was to show the matte finish of a typical phosphate finish from that period. That it’s a period German one is just a fortuitous circumstance (I also collect U.S. from that era and they are also matte finishes). With a phosphate finish not being an oxide finish like bluing, but a physical crystalline coating on steel not unlike in some respects electroplating. And what I am seeing on the blades looks like bluing. And in some of the images what looks like corrosion byproducts, and some other things that should not normally be there if the images are true representations (meaning accurate) of the items being discussed.

Best Regards, FP

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The 1945? dated pieces have no sign of reworks, the DH are engraved, the rough finish is typical for this type of commerzial pieces, so as same pieces exist owned by other members here is the question why are the pieces 45 stamped? which could be a assembly numbers in reality, as is not in full date format? same as the grips looks correct there. Why they are DH and serialed on grips?

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

Please explain the relationship of what you are looking for as to what we are discussing about bayonets. I too am also quite experienced with metal surface finishes and platings and coatings. The products that we produce at our plant must have extremely high finishes or else any imperfection in the surface of the press plates will be transferred into the garments. Platings and finishes are on everything that we do. When there is pitting in the steel the etching chemical enters in and in some cases comes out after the plating runing the whole job.

Please explain what type of comparrison you are trying to make and for what reason.

Richard KuchtA

Richard,

While I am sure that you are well versed in the methods used to make the products coming from your plant, that might not necessarily translate as well to other types of products. And one of the purposes of the the picture I posted was to show the matte finish of a typical phosphate finish from that period. That it’s a period German one is just a fortuitous circumstance (I also collect U.S. from that era and they are also matte finishes). With a phosphate finish not being an oxide finish like bluing, but a physical crystalline coating on steel not unlike in some respects to electroplating. And what I am seeing on the blades looks like bluing. And in some of the images what looks like corrosion byproducts, and some other things that should not normally be there if the images are true representations (meaning accurate) of the items being discussed.

Best Regards, FP


How do you know what the SS finish should be at this stage of the war? I am calling this a phospate finish because it does not look like a blueing. On the scabbard where the finish is missing in one area, I can see nothing in the pores of the metal on the scabbard. Everything seems to be gone. Richard K

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Originally Posted By: AndyB
The 1945? dated pieces have no sign of reworks, the DH are engraved, the rough finish is typical for this type of commerzial pieces, so as same pieces exist owned by other members here is the question why are the pieces 45 stamped? which could be a assembly numbers in reality, as is not in full date format? same as the grips looks correct there. Why they are DH and serialed on grips?

Andy,

I understand what you are saying, and as we already know period Solingen made bayonets have an external “45” marking which signifies the year they were manufactured. I’m also not making any other judgements, but I would argue that they are most likely supposed to represent a (hidden from view) 1945 date of manufacture/reworking. With the other wood grips seen to date with some type of “SS” marking on them, we’ve seen four digit dates. But with these last two examples we see a matching serial number with a “DH” on one grip. But only the last two of the matching numbers on the opposite side. But also having a “45” marking which is noticeably larger. Without a matching “45” assembly number on the tang, what else could it be?

Best Regards, FP

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Originally Posted By: AndyB
The 1945? dated pieces have no sign of reworks, the DH are engraved, the rough finish is typical for this type of commerzial pieces, so as same pieces exist owned by other members here is the question why are the pieces 45 stamped? which could be a assembly numbers in reality, as is not in full date format? same as the grips looks correct there. Why they are DH and serialed on grips?


The 45 is a typical font used for dating by the SS. Same as the 40, 41, 42, & 43 dated bayonets that I have. I have never seen an assembly number on any of the SS grips and I am sure you have not either. The SS Camp Grips have the accountability number in them 90 % of the time. If you have Camp grips, you will have a SS Property mark in them.

R. Kuchta

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com

How do you know what the SS finish should be at this stage of the war? I am calling this a phospate finish because it does not look like a blueing. On the scabbard where the finish is missing in one area, I can see nothing in the pores of the metal on the scabbard. Everything seems to be gone. Richard K

Richard,

First, I know because I've got multiple original OEM period examples to look at. And I don't think that the SS would have had its own special technologies when it came to finishes on steel. And if they had done anything like that - it would have been using what we would now call an "industry standard". Having to procure the necessary chemicals and equipment from the same places as German arms makers.

To "cut to the chase" - I think that what you are looking at mostly is the scabbard which is blued over sandblasting, and misinterpreting it as a dark phosphate. And if you look more closely at the late examples I posted I think that you will better understand why I made the statements I did.

Maybe some better pictures of the entire piece(s) inside and out will change my mind. But not with what I've seen so far.

Best Regards, FP

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First i dont believe the grips are camp made, there is no evidence of this, mainly the cof pieces, same as the other WKC piece, have origin grips that should be for this time of producing not matched!
You dont answered about the 9719 assembly number?
the piece should be marked on other parts tang, flashguard, as the numbers important by renumbering by new finish by overall rework. When we assume hypoteticaly that the piece was reworked, so the finish was done, the parts were not numbered like lock nut and flashguard how You could made it together? The acountability number has no reason to be under grips.
You have many grips reported already date stamped but only with SS runes and no acountability number? why? the pieces are not matching then.a WKC with 1941 dated grips is not to confirm as real of this piece because there is no number on grips.It could be grips from other piece, as they are because the WKC was made 1943.
For me this have only one reason the dated grips are problematic, because there is always a DH or a SS runes but assembly or "acountability " numbers not always!! Why? Because link the piece with SS. There are many WKC blankos reported to this time from various members to this time, no one have a similar marking, its not little suspicious for You? I assume as a well known member of SS collecting community that are You already, You could be a target of SS fakers.Certainly You have there a very nice real pieces, but unfortunally some problematic too. Same as certainly some faked.

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AndyB #235416 12/15/2010 04:18 PM
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Richard,

This has been a very interesting and valuable discussion/debate on a near and dear subject. I look forward to you continuing your presentation of SS related items.

Scott

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WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
Denny Gaither #235430 12/15/2010 07:42 PM
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" The serial numbers of these bayonets are: 1236 & 1237. The bayonets were never issued. We now have bayonets and scabbards that have the manufacturers codes as well as the serial numbers and dates removed. Blades look to be unpolished but heavy coating of phospate looks beautiful. On the tang of the 1237 SS bayonet, the old serial number of 9718 remains. On the tang of the 1236 SS bayonet, you find the old serial number 5738 and a large H and 6. The WAs have been scrubbed from the pommel. Inside of the new grips is a new geometry style, full frontal TK; serial # and 45 date. Yes, the bayonet is SS Property Marked. The 45 dated bayonets do have new wooden grips. There is not a scratch on them. The inside of the grips provide great documentation for the SS bayonet."
It would be great to see the other numbers on tang when possible, same as it would be nice to see the removed cof marking or the WaA removed? The 9718 and 5738 are not old serials but assembly numbers for me, the system of the marking is typical for normal Eickhorn production. The grips are not new for me.

Last edited by AndyB; 12/15/2010 07:43 PM.
sszza2 #235495 12/16/2010 03:36 PM
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Hi Scott,

How are you doing. Haven't heard from you in awhile. Hope all is well.

Very interesting discussion, I did get the Lazy S over TK from the gentleman in Germany that was discussing SS bayonets on another forum.

Richard K

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Richard,

Thanks. Been very busy with much travel.

Yes - a very interesting discussion, which I hope continues and expands into the other items you mentioned.

Good for you on the Lazy S TK. If its the example I am thinking of - it appeared completely period correct and compares very favorably to others I have examined.

Scott

AndyB #235514 12/16/2010 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
First i dont believe the grips are camp made, there is no evidence of this, mainly the cof pieces, same as the other WKC piece, have origin grips that should be for this time of producing not matched!

1. The grips have been replaced on these bayonets, The condition of the grips are excellent ++ to mint. The condition of these bayonets before rework (looking through a magnifying glass)consisted of rusted pitted blades that were heavily buff ground. Now, usually the blade is the most protected surface of a bayonet and these were rusted & pitted. No way that the grips that are on these bayonets were original to the piece.


You dont answered about the 9719 assembly number?

2. Number 9719 is stamped into the tang. What SS Rework Document do you have that says that the tang number should be on all of the bayonet components?? The majority of my SS bayonets do not come close to having such a matchup of numbers. I shall use the SS Death Head Lugers as a prime example of components not being matched. The objective was to produce Lugers that functioned from being assembled from scrapped lugers that were not acceptable to the Army.

the piece should be marked on other parts tang, flashguard, as the numbers important by renumbering by new finish by overall rework. When we assume hypoteticaly that the piece was reworked, so the finish was done, the parts were not numbered like lock nut and flashguard how You could made it together?

The acountability number has no reason to be under grips.

3. Why does the accountability number have no reason to be under the grip where you can not see it?? What SS documention do you cite to substantiate your statement. The SS did not always include the accountability number under the grips of bayonets. The SS 98/05 bayonets very seldom have an accountability number & or SS Property Stamps located there.

SS TV Bayonets may sometimes include the following information under the grips: 1. STANDARTE #
2. DATE
3. Accountability #
4. SS Property Mark

SS TV Bayonets may sometimes have the following information on the outside of the grips: 1. STANDARTE #
2. SS Property Mark
3. KL ID

There are alot of variations as to what markings are on the inside of the grips and a few as to what markings are on the outside of the grips and on certain bayonets and or models nothing at all on the grips. Andy, you are trying to say that SS bayonets must follow some strict rules as to what should be on the grips or else it is a fake. I take your statements as made being based upon lack of knowledge & experience with SS Bayonets.



WKC with 1941 dated grips is not to confirm as real of this piece because there is no number on grips.It could be grips from other piece, as they are because the WKC was made 1943.

4. Does the WKC with 1941 dated grips with no accountability number on the grips become a fake?? Did the bayonet even have an accountability #??

What did you use again for criteria to determine when the blade was made??

WKC provided blades & components to some of the SS work camps where the bayonets were assembled using slave labor. I have several pieces to show later that represents the extremely crude workmanship and quality produced. If you have SS documentation that states that WKC did not provide bayonet components to the Camps,please post it for us to see.


For me this have only one reason the dated grips are problematic, because there is always a DH or a SS runes but assembly or "acountability " numbers not always!! Why? Because link the piece with SS.

There are many WKC blankos reported to this time from various members to this time, no one have a similar marking, its not little suspicious for You?

5. How about all of the SS Collectors that have the SS Property Stamped Rifles, and bayonets in their collections. What does this mean to you?? The only thing that is suspicious are your shoot from the hip comments. Your direction and comments readily indicate that Andy from Czechlosvakia does not know what he is talking about when it comes to SS weapons. You make statements with no substantiation of SS Reference and or SS Bayonets. You make statements that it is suspicious that you and some of your collector friends have not seen any SS marked bayonets. SS Bayonets and rifles are rare. They are still out there and they are in collections.


I assume as a well known member of SS collecting community that are You already, You could be a target of SS fakers.Certainly You have there a very nice real pieces, but unfortunally some problematic too. Same as certainly some faked.

6. I do not agree with your statement that I have fake SS bayonets in my collection. You make value judgements based on no knowledge and or expertise of SS weapons. As you indicated before it is suspicious you and some of your collector friends have not seen any. This lack of knowledge of SS Property Marks, Locations, & variations is very evident in your statements. I have tried to show the relationships between the markings on the firearms and those of the bayonets.

RICHARD KUCHTA

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com

What did you use again for criteria to determine when the blade was made??

RICHARD KUCHTA


Richard,

I can’t speak for Andy, but what I use to date unmarked items are usually OEM dated military bayonets to compare them with. Which is why it’s really nice to be able to see things close up. And without that, what do you have to actually have to evaluate a specific item?? So all you can do is guess. Do you have your own method for dating?

Best Regards, FP

sszza2 #235520 12/16/2010 06:54 PM
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Scott,

I have gotten one other SS bayonet from the same area. Please jump in when you want. I have some bayonets with the M over the Death Head. Similiar to the SS Property stamp on a rifle.

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com

What did you use again for criteria to determine when the blade was made??

RICHARD KUCHTA


Richard,

I can’t speak for Andy, but what I use to date unmarked items are usually OEM dated military bayonets to compare them with. Which is why it’s really nice to be able to see things close up. And without that, what do you have to actually have to evaluate a specific item?? So all you can do is guess. Do you have your own method for dating?

Best Regards, FP



FP,

I do not have an exact science method to determine the date of the bayonet. I do a blade comparrison using calipers to check against known dated blades.

The theory of camp made bayonets using slave labor somewhat distorts the overall dating process of the bayonet. Blade blanks might be accurately dated but the final Assembly process might be a year or two off depending on how the material moves through the system. Also the factor of battlefield salvage enters into play and older bayonets may end up a new finish and new dated grips.

Richard K

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There must be not know the SS marking, because You dont understand how the bayonets were made, the problem is that You r opinion about made the bayonets by SS is wrong, all the pictured bayonets were made by bayonet producers and from them there were exact rules how they were mashined and stamped.
to nr.1 You should compare the other pieces in this forum, mainly the Eickhorn blankos, they have same markings, so there is no reason to believe the grips are new, the 1237 have the origin blade finish.
nr.2 why speak about half of site about Your hypothesis but bring no picture of the serials there on left tang, same as remove the lock nut and bring the stamps of there
nr.3 that are only Your hypothesis about the SS marking under grips,there is no evidence of similar marking
nr.4 every expert on SG84/98 could You say when was a piece made, against a special finish, marking,and various stamps, as You could not say this from the pieces, i assume You understand not the area of SG84/98 german bayonets
nr.5 and 6 all the posted here Vz.24 bayonets marked of inside of grips all in reality are not correct SS pieces. Thats my opinion, You mustnt trust me. But there is no reason to stamp the items so.

AndyB #235536 12/16/2010 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
There must be not know the SS marking, because You dont understand how the bayonets were made, the problem is that You r opinion about made the bayonets by SS is wrong, all the pictured bayonets were made by bayonet producers and from them there were exact rules how they were mashined and stamped.
to nr.1 You should compare the other pieces in this forum, mainly the Eickhorn blankos, they have same markings, so there is no reason to believe the grips are new, the 1237 have the origin blade finish.
nr.2 why speak about half of site about Your hypothesis but bring no picture of the serials there on left tang, same as remove the lock nut and bring the stamps of there
nr.3 that are only Your hypothesis about the SS marking under grips,there is no evidence of similar marking
nr.4 every expert on SG84/98 could You say when was a piece made, against a special finish, marking,and various stamps, as You could not say this from the pieces, i assume You understand not the area of SG84/98 german bayonets
nr.5 and 6 all the posted here Vz.24 bayonets marked of inside of grips all in reality are not correct SS pieces. Thats my opinion, You mustnt trust me. But there is no reason to stamp the items so.


Andy,

You are expressing your opinion not a fact. Provide SS documentation to support your statements and or other legitimate SS bayonets.

Richard K

Denny Gaither #235537 12/16/2010 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: Denny Gaither
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FORUM,

In regards to the bottom left photo showing a Crown N Proof Mark, please see Death Head Luger Pictures (toward the end) and you will see the same type of commercial proof used by the SS on the lugers.

Richard K

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"WKC provided blades & components to some of the SS work camps where the bayonets were assembled using slave labor. I have several pieces to show later that represents the extremely crude workmanship and quality produced. If you have SS documentation that states that WKC did not provide bayonet components to the Camps,please post it for us to see."This is only Your opinion, firstly there is nothing to do when sending blades and components as only assemble it, and when mashined by firm that make a stamp on blade for their name and quality so they will not give any parts that were not fullended, the WKC certainly saled the parts for dress bayonets, but their were never marked on visible parts as blade or pommel with maker marks.
I dont know why You couldnt made the shots of left tang of the 1237 piece and remove the lock nut that will be clear what for stamps are there?



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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

I do not have an exact science method to determine the date of the bayonet. I do a blade comparrison using calipers to check against known dated blades.

The theory of camp made bayonets using slave labor somewhat distorts the overall dating process of the bayonet. Blade blanks might be accurately dated but the final Assembly process might be a year or two off depending on how the material moves through the system. Also the factor of battlefield salvage enters into play and older bayonets may end up a new finish and new dated grips.

Richard K


Richard,

Do you have a couple of 'textbook/best case' examples to look at to demonstrate visually the idea of camp made bayonets - your choice. That you could use to walk us through in detail the process (but it doesn't have to be ultra complicated), to illustrate what you are saying as to how they were made. For both the: "WKC provided blades & components to some of the SS work camps where the bayonets were assembled using slave labor." And the "battlefield salvage" type. I'm curious to see how the pieces might fit together,

Best Regards, FP

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Denny,

Would you please post a few pictures that I just sent. The pictures are of the SS Consecutive Numbered Bayonets showing the Tang Numbers and Latch Numbers.

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

I do not have an exact science method to determine the date of the bayonet. I do a blade comparrison using calipers to check against known dated blades.

The theory of camp made bayonets using slave labor somewhat distorts the overall dating process of the bayonet. Blade blanks might be accurately dated but the final Assembly process might be a year or two off depending on how the material moves through the system. Also the factor of battlefield salvage enters into play and older bayonets may end up a new finish and new dated grips.

Richard K


Richard,

Do you have a couple of 'textbook/best case' examples to look at to demonstrate visually the idea of camp made bayonets - your choice. That you could use to walk us through in detail the process (but it doesn't have to be ultra complicated), to illustrate what you are saying as to how they were made. For both the: "WKC provided blades & components to some of the SS work camps where the bayonets were assembled using slave labor." And the "battlefield salvage" type. I'm curious to see how the pieces might fit together,

Best Regards, FP



FP,

Perhaps you might have some text books on SS Camp Made Bayonets that would readily show the rework & or assembly of these SS Bayonets. I myself have no such "text book" and I would give anything to have such documentation. The best that I can provide is an actual SS Bayonet showing the quality of workmanship that we have discussed. I would really be interested in seeing any references that are out there pertaining to SS bayonets. Perhaps we are pioneering new territory. There really has not been much new introduced into the field of bayonet collecting in over 30 years.

Richard Kuchta

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Vern & Forum,

Still having trouble posting. My system locks up every time I try to submit a large post.

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

Perhaps you might have some text books on SS Camp Made Bayonets that would readily show the rework & or assembly of these SS Bayonets. I myself have no such "text book" and I would give anything to have such documentation. The best that I can provide is an actual SS Bayonet showing the quality of workmanship that we have discussed. I would really be interested in seeing any references that are out there pertaining to SS bayonets. Perhaps we are pioneering new territory. There really has not been much new introduced into the field of bayonet collecting in over 30 years.

Richard Kuchta

Richard,

As a specialist in the area. If you had period SS textbooks showing the KZ reworking, and the new manufacture of bayonets I don't think that we would be having this discussion. And I’m flattered that you might even think for a moment that I might have such books. But if I did - why would I have asked:

“Do you have a couple of 'textbook/best case' examples to look at to demonstrate visually the idea of camp made bayonets - your choice. That you could use to walk us through in detail the process (but it doesn't have to be ultra complicated), to illustrate what you are saying as to how they were made. For both the: "WKC provided blades & components to some of the SS work camps where the bayonets were assembled using slave labor." And the "battlefield salvage" type. I'm curious to see how the pieces might fit together." ??

Because what I was actually asking for were some examples that you could use to illustrate your point of view. With my thinking being that if you don’t have documentation - sometimes the next best thing is “reverse engineering”. And it was more of an across the board (wide spectrum) look at not just the WKC types. But some of the Vz. 24 reworks as well which seem to be more diverse (but relatively ignored in this discussion) which could be as equally instructive.

And it would seem that we are "on the same page" with how to approach looking into how they were made/remanufactured: "The best that I can provide is an actual SS Bayonet showing the quality of workmanship that we have discussed."

Best Regards, FP

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