UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum WWII German Japanese Tripartide Holler Sword

Hi Everyone,
Here is an interesting Holler sword that I have been unable to find any leads on. This fine sword measures 39 inches overall length with a 34 1/4 inch factory unsharpened chrome blade. The blade is marked under the shield (unpresented) with the manufactures name inside an oval cartuche "F.W. H�ller/Solingen/(stamped thermometer inside double oval TM)". The hilt knuckle bow and pommel are solid brass with gold gild remaining. The German National Symbol of the Nazi Party is on the reverse shield with wings unspread (Pre-1939?). The brass sword pommel and backstrap are featured with a relieved oak leaf and acorn theme in surround with the front band of the knucklebow, or 'P-guard', covered with what appears to be a 'Cherry Leaf & Berry' leaf pattern with a Japanese style 'rising sun' symbol in the center (see photos). Any information would be appreciated. Photos below. Thanks!
Jeff J
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq217/doginthemafia/sword/pic1.jpg
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq217/doginthemafia/sword/pic4jpg.jpg
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq217/doginthemafia/sword/pic3.jpg
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq217/doginthemafia/sword/pic2.jpg

Jeff-

Is this the sword being offered on gunbroker right now?

Tom

Hi Tom,
Yes, it is. Do you have any information on it? Thanks for your response.
Jeff

Hi Jeff,
No I don't. I've looked through all my period Holler cat. and reference on the piece and as of this point have come up empty.

What can you tell us about the lineage of the piece and short of interpreting the hilt embellishments, why do you believe this was a Tripartite Pact related piece? Curious if you have any sort of documentation or other data.

I will say it's an interesting piece which to me appears to be a period Holler and likewise doesn't appear to have been post-war played with. Interestingly, this is the first time i've ever seen this pattern of hilt embellishment. The obverse langet is a Holler design I can say. As we can see it's clearly a cast hilt meaning Holler had a mold. Perhaps the mold was from prior use and was a pattern Holler stopped producing during the NS era. It just wouldn't have been economically viable for Holler to crank out a mold for a single use. There must have been an existing mold already in hand. Perhaps it was a pattern only available to special order requests. I just don't know. Making the Imperial Japanese connection is going to be tough to convince collectors. I think we should first look at the more likely alternative theories first which would easierly explain what we are seeing. If we did find some period evidence that infact the piece was associated with the Tripartite Pact, it would not only be a really neat piece, but a very rare one at that. I fear though that's most likely not the case. But then again, you never know.

It's a very interesting piece I will say, and does seem to be a good example. I wouldn't worry about it being a post-war piece or post-war tweaked. It says Holler, period example to me.

Jeff- can you post an image of the knucle P-guard? I'd like to see what design is cast into this part.

Hi Tom,
No, I have no documentation. This sword came with an inherited set of WWII US Veteran acquired German and Japanese items. At one time there were more war souvenirs however they were split up between other relatives and they had been sold before I met the man. When I bought the last remaining items there was a Japanese Wakisashi sword, an SS car pennant, a SS belt knife, a 9x5ft German National banner, a sports shirt German National emblem, and this sword. The family had no idea of the importance of establishing provenance for any of the items and as well, were not willing to include any information about the veteran. I too wish I had the complete story. Thanks for your time.
Jeff

Hi Jeff,
When you get a chance, can you post of pic of the P-guard? I'd really like to take a gander at the motif. Finding info on this pattern might be difficult. As I mentioned above, i've never seen this particular backstrap/pommel assembly. It's interesting, and I believe 100% period. Another sword collector and I were discussing the piece. I'll continue to search and see what, if anything, I can find on the piece.

Still a neat piece, and definitely a scarcer hilt pattern.

Hi Tom,
Can you review the photos on gunbroker.com? Or perhaps tell me exactly what you need that is not shown there. I would be glad to post any photos needed. Thanks!
Jeff

As a non-specialist in this particular area, I�m glad that �Swordfish� has had a look, having more experience with these types of sabers. I also am of the opinion that absent some actual proof of the matter, making a connection to Imperial Japan is going to be very, very, difficult. From the images, I also did not get the feeling that this has been postwar fooled around with. So when I say it might be made from parts of a different source/time period it�s not in the context of a fake. But more that the maker might have used parts made at different times to complete the sword - seeming to recall similar backstraps from the Imperial/postwar (WW I) era.

And most admittedly this is a guess at this point: Said parts combined with what could have been a test, or small scale production (like a salesman�s sample etc.) example of a knucklebow design to to see what it looked like. That did not make it into the catalogs or large scale production.

Attached: One of the images that seems to show the parts being made from different batches of alloys (ie: knucklebow vs. backstrap-collar). FP

Hi Fred,
Thanks! Red brass vs yellow brass. Yes, I also noted the color variations. I thought red brass was older and that if there were changes or even a single change as in the 'presentation' backstrap that it would be in a more recent cast and in yellow brass.
Other things, like the eagle. What truth is there in dating the eagle by the direction of the head and/or spread wings vs draped?
The sword is covered in a dark gunk possibly a cosmoline like substance. The previous owner showed that it could be scraped off with a fingernail as he showed on the inside of the knuckle bow. I have always left swords and knives in their original condition, however, what is the accepted policy? Thanks!

PS Tom, I will post more pictures of the P-guard which has the oak leaves pattern.
Jeff

Hello Jeff

First, my apologies for not welcoming you to the forum earlier! As for the sword, red brass just means that it has more copper in the alloy. With a huge number of Imperial era swords having what we will call the �normal� color of brass, not having a red or reddish tinge. So to me, absent some other indications, it still indicates a sword made from different batches of parts. As for a so called �presentation� backstrap that remains to be seen. If you look at a fraction (much less all) of the different Imperial variants, and then their TR era counterparts, there is quite a difference between makers where design is concerned.

And if this was truly a �presentation� sword, why go to all of the trouble (and relatively considerable extra cost) to create a very detailed specific mold? Which, in theory, could not be used with standard production. Versus spending a couple of Reich Marks etching the blade with an actual presentation inscription or motto, Japanese emblem, etc.(?)

And with nothing on a blank escutcheon? Which is on the opposite side of a (more or less) generic style Third Reich eagle/swastika that is typical of a German Army officer's sword?

As for straight versus drooped wings - Tom (Swordfish) is a better judge with the sabers. But I can say this: The earlier German Army Waffenamts had droop wings, with the later ones being straight. But at least with the later sword catalogs they seem to show both styles. So I (personally) look at what a sword is made from - with brass (copper based) being relatively early.

Regards, Fred

Some clarification and additional information regarding some of my above comments. What was originally asked for was information about what was described as a: �WWII German Japanese Tripartide Holler Sword�. Which is described as having a: �Cherry Leaf & Berry' leaf pattern with a Japanese style 'rising sun' symbol� (being elaborated on at considerable length elsewhere).

As far as I know no documentation or any other evidence exists to support the existence of such a special order sword in that period. So I think that we have to look at what is known, or can reasonably be proven.

The Tripartite Pact between Germany, Italy, and Japan itself was signed in late September of 1940. And if, for discussion purposes, we use 1938 as a tentative cutoff date for the series production of brass hilted swords (copper had become a restricted material earlier). That by itself I think would call into question when the saber was made, because by 1940 the use of alternate materials to manufacture dress bladed sidearms is already well known with earlier period dated items.

I don�t have enough botanical knowledge to claim to know. Or make a guess at what a representation in brass of what a (as was suggested) Japanese themed �Cherry leaf & Berry� on a German made sword would or should look like. But I do have some idea of what some of the Japanese national symbols from the WW II period should probably look like. Posted at the bottom from left to right: The sword, a receiver ring �mum� from a Japanese rifle, the war flag of the Imperial Japanese Army. And the Japanese Emperor�s standard. Which using the sword�s backstrap as a reference. From my perspective the backstrap decoration having an oval shape. That is unquestionably missing about one third (1/3) of its �rays� (or petals).

I don�t think that the sword is a fake or bad item. And I very much appreciate having it being posted as an out of the ordinary example of a period manufactured saber, which has generated some discussion and interest. But to make a Japanese �connection� IMHO is going to take something more than what looks like a vague resemblance to something.

Best Regards to All, Fred

I took a gander at your auction to confirm my thoughts on the P-guard/quillion assembly pattern. This example clearly utilizes the Holler Nr. 42 P-gaurd/quillion assembly. The 42 was a lionhead saber, not that it really matters as this part was quite interchangeable and would have been peaned internally under the pommel. I too had noticed the disparity between the metallic composition of the various hilt fittings. It would make sense the the backstrap/pommel assembly was manufactured at an earlier time, and could very well be left over stock from the Weimar era. However, I find the grip ferrule intriguing because that pattern ferrule, was produced by Holler up till the end, and would have been manufactured in various alloys, similiar to that of the qiollion. Why was a ferrule from an earlier time of manufactur used? It's not that Holler was concerned with mismatched metallic hilt pieces as evidence by the mere presence of the saber. Also of note is that you'll notice any number of period sabers have hilt parts, specifically the ferrule, which was manufactured of different alloy than the rest of the saber hilt- a practice not limited to Holler.

I think Freds hypothesis about the backstrap is sound. I cannot rectify why Holler would have intentionally cast this backstrap in a different alloy during contemporary (30-40's)times. Perhaps there are more of these out there, however none have been seen by the eyes of most collectors.

Fred was '38 the brass alloy cut-off date? Going back to our discussion several weeks ago, was brass placed on the strategic metals list in '38? I still can't find the strategic metals (alum & brass) order we discussed- but I know I do have it. Either way, i'm quite comfortable asserting this piece is not relevant to the Tripartite pact. I can't prove it, but certainly the preponderance of evidence certainly suggests this to be the case. It's exceptionally unlikely the piece is related whatsoever. Again, it's still an interesting and sort of neat odd-ball variety of period Heer saber.

Tom, 1935 was the date. But I�m giving what I think is a reasonably generous measure of the benefit of a doubt, because existing stocks of metals were not recalled, and makers could use what they had on hand until it ran out. With (from dated specimens) 1938 unquestionably seeing a substantial use of copper substitutes (and the German Police degens that had nickel plated steel hilts) etc. etc. As for aluminum, I�m fairly certain that I have something said by G�ring, but need to find it first to check the date. With my recollection being that it�s a later period, with zinc of course being the material used for the still later/last items made until production was terminated.

I also found the observation �could very well be left over stock from the Weimar era� fairly interesting. While not an area that I specialize in, the level of workmanship seems to be consistent with what I have seen. And coming out of the Great Depression, there is quite a bit of evidence that they did not let things go to waste - but used up preexisting parts in newly manufactured production. Fred

Hi Guys,
It may be earlier, perhaps with Von Ribbentrop signing the Anti-Comintern Pact, Berlin, Germany, 25 Nov 1936 with Japanese ambassador to Berlin Kintomo Mushakoji watching. Photos show several Japanese dignitaries in the background. What rank is the sword? NCO, Staff, General? What date is the Holler Nr. 42 P-guard. Germany and Japan had some history through the 1930s and attempts to provide gifts were undoubtedly made. Perhaps conjoining both German and Japanese national symbols would have been an attempt to show future solidarity (however unfinished the sword is).
The use of simple, lanceolate shaped leaves and some kind of long stem berries seems really straying from the oak leaf and acorns so easily distinguished on all other German swords. Are there other examples of such variance from the traditional oak leaves and acorns? Lets see what can be found on the leaf and berry symbolism used and simply set aside the similarities/differences to the rising sun symbol. I appreciate all of the interest shown in this unusual sword. Thanks!
Jeff

Hi Everyone,
Look into this guy Hiroshi Oshima, I found this on the World War II Database.

Hiroshi Oshima was born in Gifu Prefecture, Japan to one-time Minister of War Kenichi Oshima. He attended the Japanese Army Academy and completed his studies in 1906. In 1915, he completed courses at the Army War College. Between 1923 and 1924, he was a military attach� in Budapest, Hungary and Vienna, Austria. Between 1930 and 1931, he was the commanding officer of the 10th Field Artillery Regiment.

In 1934, Oshima became a military attach� in Berlin, Germany at the rank of colonel. He befriended Joachim von Ribbentrop and met Adolf Hitler in the fall of 1935. By 1938, his close working relationship with top Nazi German officials landed him the position of ambassador and the rank of lieutenant general. In this capacity, he was instrumental in the forging and signing of the Anti-Comintern Pact on 25 Nov 1936 and the Tripartite Pact on 27 Sep 1940.

Between 1939 and 1940, Oshima returned to Japan, but was sent back to Germany in early 1941 at the insistence of the German government. In late 1941, he received the Grand Cross of the Order of the German Eagle in Gold from Hitler. Becoming more and more of a confidante to Hitler, he received privileged information about German military deployments, and was given full access to tour front areas such as the Atlantic Wall and the Russian front. He regularly reported back to Tokyo, Japan regarding what he had learned. Unknowingly, he allowed the Americans to benefit from his detailed reports, as by 1940 the Americans had already broken the Japanese diplomatic code. Nearly all of his hundreds of dispatches sent between 1941 and 1945 were intercepted by the Americans, providing the Western Allies most valuable intelligence. For example, Oshima's messages in early 1944 regarding Japan's intelligence network in Spain and the implicit Spanish cooperation led to the American decision to stop supplying the neutral country of Spain petroleum products. Later that year, his detailed report of German troop deployments, defensive armaments, and mobile reserves on the French coast was intercepted by the Allies and it greatly assisted the planning and execution of the Normandy invasion. American General George Marshall later noted Oshima as "our main basis of information regarding Hitler's intentions in Europe". The fact that the Allies were monitoring his diplomatic transmissions was not made known until after Oshima's death in 1975.

On 13 Apr 1945, Oshima met with Ribbentrop for the last time. He never thought that Germany would actually lose the war despite the rapidly approaching Allied forces. He promised Ribbentrop that he would make the last stand along with the leaders of Germany. It was one of many examples of him being an ardent supporter of Nazi Germany; he was so much so that in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich author William Shirer said Oshima was "more Nazi than the Nazis". Nevertheless, like all diplomats present in Berlin, he was ordered to evacuate later on that same day he met with Ribbentrop. The Japanese diplomatic staff evacuated to Bad Gastein, Austria, a mountain resort on 14 Apr. The staff was detained by the Americans after the German surrender and was interrogated in a resort hotel in Pennsylvania, United States.

Oshima was arrested in Japan on 16 Dec 1945 for war crimes. He was found guilty by the International Military Tribunal for conspiring to wage aggressive war on 12 Nov 1948. He served his life sentence until late 1955 when he was paroled, and in 1958 he was granted clemency. He passed away in 1975 in Tokyo, Japan.

Hello Jeff,

As for who would have normally carried the sword (and Tom can correct me on this if necessary) the sword would normally be appropriate for a German Army officer, or senior grade NCO, as a private purchase dress uniform item. And while I�m sure that the general information history lesson is going to be informative to some readers, there is no argument that at some point German and Japanese interests became commingled. Or that at some point there was an exchange of commerce. Including some fairly significant technology during the wartime years.

But now that the questionable �Rising Sun� has been taken off the table and set aside. As you suggest, why don�t we look at how some German swords were decorated? Not the best of pictures, here is what is unquestionably a Prussian IOD 89. Which, interestingly enough was also used during the Weimar period, minus some of the Imperial era symbology. Drawing attention to the back of the guard�s knucklebow portion. Which seems to show a pattern done a little differently, but not completely unlike the backstrap of the saber under discussion. With my point being that all kinds of decorations can be seen if you look at enough examples. But that does not necessarily make something Japanese, because as we also know, Japan was not a friend of Germany during WW I but an enemy.

Regards, Fred

Fred-
Great example of an '89 illustrating the point. I completely agree with your sentiments.

Clearly there were some strange molds out there for creating hilt assembly embellishements that we seldom see. I imagine that the various manufacturers retained these molds even for patterns which might have become archaic because of a change in regime, political movement, etc (possibly with the exception of some NS langet/quillion molds as part of the German de-Nazification process in post-45 Germany).

The vast majority of strangely embellished hilts i've found are on hand worked dovehead sabers. The reason is simple: a blank officer pattern can be worked by hand into any potential custom order by an officer or his comrades, in the form of a presentation piece. It's also important to remember that a sabers hilt embellishment does not neccessarily represent symbols which are relevant to German culture or military tradition. I have examples which have no connnection to anything German- that I can decipher anyway. One piece in particular I own dates from the Weimar era, and whos hilt decoration is simply an elaborate system of circles, twirls, curly Qs and nothing more. I believe it's important to keep our interpretation of what we see in check. We don't want to overthink what we see because we know from past experiences, speculation and false interpretation gave birth to theories which are now proven false. A collector in the early years didn't have the luxories of the world wide web or significant global networking. As such, early collectors made rational, albeit incorrect assumptions and interpretations about what they were seeing, which ultimately gave rise to false theories and incorrect conclusions. We all like to think what we are seeing is more than it is. I believe this is particularly true with respect to this Holler 42-esque piece discussed above.

I am certain if we searched long and hard, with an emphasis on pre-NS era sabers, we would find other examples with this particular backstrap/pommel assembly. It's important to keep in mind this saber is a Holler Nr. 42 through and through. The only difference is the backstrap/pommel assembly. The P-gaurd/langet/quillion set up IS the 42 pattern. I would imagine that a German produced, Tripartite presentation saber would not use a simple Nr 42 assembly and your standard, plated blade. As Fred mentioned, we'd likely see a blade presentation, and I also believe it would be much more likely we would find the use of blank- so the hilt can be worked into whatever design the blade artisans, govt., etc. see fit. Thinking back on some of the nicer blue-panel presentation pieces i've seen, many are on handworked "roon-esque" style hilts.

Tom,

I understand where you are coming from with customization for a true presentation piece. Paneled, etched, something to distinguish the individual or an occasion.

And as much as dagger collectors acknowledge the (legitimate) buying and selling of parts between makers. I personally would not be surprised if some sword parts were subcontracted (like the collars) and maybe some other parts, as has been discussed elsewhere. (And I know that I�ve seen, and had legitimate items from different production batches that were used in manufacturing somewhat later items.) And we are not even getting into Imperial era German blades with all sorts of different ornamentation. Or those which were copies of foreign types/patterns.

But when all is said and done. What I see is a German Army Officer�s saber that I had not seen before - and I very much doubt that I will ever see them all. But that is what makes collecting so much fun!!


While the Anti-Communist International Pact has an interesting history with some side notes as regards what actually transpired behind the scene. For the sake of brevity, I�m going to confine my efforts to the following request:

"All other German swords"? Perhaps German Army daggers, as they all pretty much all look alike, no matter who the maker is. But not so for the German Army Officer�s sabers. Not being a specialist collector of the sabers myself, I can�t really even begin to give an estimate of all of the different models of sabers made during the time of the Third Reich.

But doing a quick search of some of the information that I have available, here is an example by Voos (to the right). That I think shows fairly well that there can be a considerable amount of artistic license. And then when you look at all of the different makers. And the many different models that some makers manufactured, or had in their product line in a given time frame. I think that you can see where making certain kinds of generalizations could be problematic.

Fred

Fred,
Absolutely concur. I agree- we're seeing a Heer pattern saber and nothing more. We'll eventually find another German produced saber with this backstrap. There is no question in my mind. I don't know if we'll find it on another TR era piece, by Holler or another manufacturer, or on a Weimar era saber.

I havn't bothered checking through all my reference to see if i'm able to find any other example with this backstrap. I know i will be keeping my eyes open for another pattern with this peculiar backstrap in the future....we will see another one, that I am sure of.

Well, for what it is worth I agree with Fred and Tom on this one. Certainly no convincing reason to believe it is attributable to a German-Japanese Tripartide sword just because of the backstrap. A nice Heer saber and nothing more IMHO.

George

Here's an interesting tid bit.

I dug through some of my reference today and check out this Holler backstrap in a period Holler sales catalog. It has essentially the same ivy and berry vines, though inplace of the round symbol, note the stubby winged wehrmacht eagle. Also of note, the tied bow on the bottom of the backstrap, above the grip ferrule. This design is either a proprietary Holler backstrap design, or as suggested, a sub'd item, almost exclusively used by Holler. There is not doubt now in my mind his piece is Holler through and through, though an Army pattern. The evidence speaks for itself. I think we can close the book now.

Tom

Another pic illustrating the backstrap above. The piece pictured is an Nr 7. This is the only Holler pattern i've been able to find with this paticular vine and berry backstrap.

So Jeffs piece is a combo and slight tweak of various patterns. P-guard and quillion are Nr 42 while the bacstrap is similiar to that of the Nr 7.

Tom,

Thanks for the extra effort and update. Looking at it some more, I'm wondering if that might might not be an artistic representation of Laurel leaves? One of the ancient symbols of victory, that is sometimes seen on some swords as a form of ornamentation.

Regards, FP