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#230338 10/14/2010 10:36 PM
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I will try to get better photos of this Dagger. I am not much of a photog and don't have good lights. It looks good to me in person. The dedication seems to be in commemoration of an early Party rally in Braunschweig by someone named "Egon Furst" My German is nicht sehr gut, but I think "Meinen Kameraden" is plural. I can't seem to find any mention of him. May be someone with better research skills could help out.










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Yes that is very strange etch.. First if the person who dedicated this dagger was saying ''for my SA Comrade Egon Fürst" He should have put "für meinen SA Kamerad Egon Fürst". Kameraden is plural, why? Also Plural words in German become feminine nouns so the the the possessive adjective meinen would become meine. In the case of this knife they put the possessive adjective in the accustive form as well by change mein to meinen which is hunky dory if the noun is still masculine, which its not because it is in the plural form. I just don't think this is a mistake that would be made on a presentation piece. I'd pass on it.. Sorry..

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Also the Rally took place in 1931 before this dagger was produced. So why would the dagger be presented at such a latter date?

Erich #230392 10/15/2010 01:50 AM
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Thank you for your comments. I think this inscription is meant by Egon Furst to remember his comrades at the event, not to be presented at the event. This can can of course only be speculation without more information about Herr Furst and the events of the meeting. I will try to get some better photos that show what I think is the period quality engraving.

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Even if that is the case Larry, like Erich said the rally was in 1931 and this dagger is from at least 1934-35.. Although the grammatical error stands out the most to me. It might seem minor to someone who doesn't know German but having the incorrect gender for the noun Kameraden sticks out like a sore thumb. The singular form is der Kamerade and the plural would be die Kameraden. Thus the possessive adjective would also change accordingly from meinen to meine.. This is grammar rules of German and I doubt a company would send out a incorrect etch? The way it is etched now it has a masculine possessive adjective with a feminine noun. Sorry it just don't add up....

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It sounds correct to me. Fur meine Kameraden, means more than one. Fur meinen Kameraden Egon Furst, means one. It depends on the article used in front of Kameraden.

Mikee #230415 10/15/2010 08:51 AM
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Mikee,
I made a mistake Kamerad(I said Kamerade in post eek ) is the correct singular form and Kameraden is plural form. So to be correct it wound need to say für meinen SA Kamerad Egon Fürst or to be plural it would need to be für meine SA Kameraden Egon Fürst. The latter would seem to make no sense unless the presenter is Egon Fürst dedicating the dagger(s) to his comrades?

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The typography appears to be a contemporary mechanical script, not what you'd expect to see on a period dedication. Many of this font type appeared on fantasy etches from the 60's on bayos and daggers, almost all with this particular font. I'd pass on this one for sure...

Red

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Hey Adam,

Your not alone, I make enough for the both of us and this could be one more of many to follow. grin I'm talking solely on gramatics and not the font or the dag in general. Your right, It can be said like your first translation as well. But remember, gramatics is fine and well but we can't forget the dramatics or the nuances of the language. It sounds correct to me. meaning one, but hopefully, Bill, Wotan and some others will help us out a little bit.

Mikee #230432 10/15/2010 04:47 PM
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Well...another good SA was ruined. Why there is plural - Kameraden, if it is dedicated to one person? Right is ''Für meinen SA Kamerad Egon Fürst''

Lukas.

Luko #230463 10/16/2010 12:52 AM
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I cannot comment on the one above, but can say with certainty that dedications do NOT always use correct grammar or abbreviations.

The person doing the dedication is often given a piece of paper with the dedication written on it. He might opine that it would be better said differently, but the decision in the end is up to the person(s) commissioning the dedication.

Case in point: My wife's uncle died a Naval Aviator in 1943. His tombstone has abbreviation and phrasing that was not even correct at the time, but that was what his parents wanted. I have seen similar "not correct" dedications in French and English.

In addition the SA were not renown for scholarship and education so perhaps that is the way they wanted it.

Dave

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The dedication is grammatically 100% correct German!!!

"Für meinen Kameraden" (for my comrade) is in this case not the plural, but the linguistic accusative. The question would be: for whom is this dagger? The answer is: for my comrade. And this is in German language "Für meinen Kameraden"!!!

Thus the dedication is 100% correct German grammar wink

From what I can see from the photos, I don´t see any red flags on the dedication. I would say it´s a good one!

Last edited by ivbaust; 10/16/2010 01:40 AM.
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I took some more photos today. I hope they shed some light at least on the etching quality. I think it is very well done and better than any of the post war etching I can remember seeing.

I would like to thank everyone who has voiced an opinion. This has been a very interesting discussion and I think all of the arguments have been well thought out and honestly presented. I hope the discussion will continue a while longer.










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Can you tell if this is acid etched vs laser etched? It looks too precise, but a super close up would help determine that....


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Grammar correct or not, the etch style is highly dubious. The text below is a Letraset font developed in the 60's and used still today. There are variations of this font style and you will see this exact font on many a fake dedication.

If you see an inscription with this script style, it has big problems. This style of letting would not have been used by period scribes who executed dedications by pen & hand.

Red

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60's fonts
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Nice close up photos ,,,of the etch,,it makes a big difference. Best the other "Larry"


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Very interesting observations on the font. While not exactly the same, it is remarkably similar. I bought this dagger in about 1980 and now I will have to carefully re-evaluate it. Thanks to all.

Larry

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Sorry Larry, I thought you were interested in buying the dagger and was looking for opinions. Had I know it was part of you collection I would not have commented.

Best, Red

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I have no problem hearing the truth as someone else sees it. I may not agree, but I welcome the discussion.

Larry

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Originally Posted By: Redbaron
The typography appears to be a contemporary mechanical script, not what you'd expect to see on a period dedication. Many of this font type appeared on fantasy etches from the 60's on bayos and daggers, almost all with this particular font. I'd pass on this one for sure...

Red


I agree 100%, fakers' favourite "Old English" script. I'm sorry, mate, to make a negative comment about the item from your collection, but the inscription looks post war to me.

Last edited by 777; 10/17/2010 09:21 PM.
777 #230698 10/18/2010 08:44 PM
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Well, some you win and some you lose. The information available to collectors today is much more sophisticated than when I bought this dagger. It is not the only mistake I have made and probably not the last, but I am learning all the time. Thanks

Larry

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Here is another ''dedicated'' dagger. Nice suhl was ruined as well.

Lukas.

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