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#227949 09/11/2010 07:21 PM
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Hit a estate sale today. Bought this army dagger. I went though wittmanns army dagger book and could not find the maker. Has anyone heard of Franz Rupprecht from duren. When I get home after dealing craps I will take some pics of it.

mananero #227954 09/11/2010 08:08 PM
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Sounds like a distributor mark – can’t wait to see the pictures.


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I bet its an Alcoso smile

Degens #227974 09/12/2010 12:40 AM
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mananero #227975 09/12/2010 01:04 AM
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Don't see it in Fisher's quick reference book either and it doesn't look like a distributor's mark.Duren looks to be about 40 miles SW of Solingen,as the eagle flies.

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I could not sleep before I go to work. The eagle looks like a wingen. It would be interesting to find another maker that no one has ever heard of.

mananero #227991 09/12/2010 07:43 AM
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Well I don’t want to jump to conclusions but the quality of the blade looks poor can we see the tang?

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mananero #228003 09/12/2010 01:21 PM
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M,

I can't see any glaring "red-flags," or anything that says outright fake. The crossguard looks to be a B-generic type and the overall condition matches throughout.

I think you just might have found something a bit out of the ordinary. If you're going to the MAX show it to Tom Wittmann,
I'm sure he'll find this one interesting, too.

Nice find ... grin

Best!

Bill Warda

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Is the makers's mark acid-etched or stamped (engraved)? Charlie


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WWII #228014 09/12/2010 04:34 PM
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Well I personally do not like the blade and the tang pictures confirm that for me. But I would love to hear some more opinions- Where’s all the army collectors?

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I've never seen anything like this mark before. As Tom notes, I don't like the look of that tang myself & the scratches that run along the blade look like someone might have steel wooled it, for some reason. As far as the maker/distributor mark, it's very unusual to have a distributor with anything stylized in terms of a logo although not unheard of, specifically those familiar with Linnenbrugger & Ellermann, Bielefeld & Geco, Berlin.

That said, the mark looks odd in that it looks (at least in the pics) to be applied over the plate loss, particularly in that last picture. If so, that would be a glaring red flag. I'm not sure & can't tell for certain from the pictures. Can we see a better close up of the logo around the plate loss area on the right? Thanks


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Billy G. #228035 09/12/2010 08:37 PM
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This was found with 3 other wwii pieces. I tried getting those. One was a us m1 bayonet dated 1943 cut down no scabbard went for 35. Second was a really nice sa eickhorn with a two piece hanger. All the annozied paint was missing on the scabbard. Otherwise a really nice dagger. That went for 550. Army nco belt and buckle marked jfs (i think) went for 160. I am not worried about the correctness of this piece. I am more interested if there is any others out there. I already sent tom pics last night. If I hear something from him I will try to meet him. He only lives a hour away. Besides it gives me a excuse to get a chipotle burrito in bridgewater.

The logo is acid etched.

The dagger fits tight in the scabbard. But here is more pics with my 8 year old digital camera.







mananero #228164 09/14/2010 08:59 AM
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hate to throw a monkey wrench into this BUT, isn't the company name associated with post war hitler youth daggers ????
I'm not an expert but, I have been working hard & long on a book of ALL maker marks of third reich items. NEVER seen this mark OR name on anything yet (till now). Plus the grip (photo of it apart) looks like more modern plastic as seen on the repro /factory part daggers ussually with original eickhorn marked blades. I believe a parts dagger. I'LL LOOK HARDER AT OTHER DETAILS.JEFF H.

jeff #228249 09/15/2010 12:39 PM
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Sorry, the repro h.j. name is "rehwappen".
but still not found in any of my notes, even as a distributor.
nothing comes up on any web searchs ; google or wiki, ect.
royal family with that name in bavaria. and the town blown off the map by allied bombers late in the war.
if the parts were all early , would say "maybe" a one off for the governments approval to make , & they got the thumbs down ?????
Iam surprised no others have been see; IF post war , would assume there would be more , as repros ussually run in groups, not just one.

jeff #230452 10/15/2010 08:40 PM
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Quite interesting...Have to go with WW2-Collector in saying the blade looks questionable,rounded edges on blade panels and seamless transition from blade to tang. How is fit of crossguard to tang?? These early tapered tang daggers usually have a real tight fit! Any billet clamp seam along the edge of the tang? Lets figure this one out,havent seen this mark good or bad before...


It's ALL in the DETAILS!!.......
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Hmmm.
Very interesting.
A couple thoughts for your consideration.
In my experience very early pieces did not utilize generic crossguards so the combination of a tapered tang and a generic crossguard is rarely seen. Some of you guys who have dealt with more armies may have. Early tapered tang makers in my experience bought crossguards from other makers, more often than not from Pack.
It would be interesting to see the inside of the grip to see if it's freshly hogged out to accept that tang...
Ok having said all that I am not discounting this maker mark. Are the scratches right through the maker mark I suspect they are with no evidence of the maker mark being applied after the scratches. It would be a heck of a lot of work to apply that maker mark to one blade then scratch it all up like that. For what? An extra 100 or $200 on the collector market? Sounds like this was obtained at an estate sale where no one stood to profit from an unusual maker mark. My gut says this blade is ok. You may have a winner here but there are many mare knowledgeable folks reading here. Hopefully they will share a pearl....

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Sorry I didnt check in on this thread lately. I sent pics to shea and he said there is nothing wrong with other than being a unheard of army dagger maker. I finally got a hold of wittmann. Ill take more pics of the inside of the handle. Everything is tight on it. Pics are coming up right after I find out where in the floor I put it. Probably buried under a mound of laundry.

mananero #230497 10/16/2010 12:11 PM
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mananero #230562 10/17/2010 02:26 AM
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Hello,

Having owned over 100 armys and having handled probably 200 or more I must first state I have never scene nor heard from old timers this maker mark, at first glance the generic crossguard throws me off ( typical later plated crossguard ) with early Fat tapered tang usually indicitive of very early production as Lakeside stated above, although thats not always the case as Christianwerk (FORK LOGO) considered very early and very rare ive owned 3 and 2 of them had the same crossguard as yours does above. The grip also is usually the slant 1st style variety with a larger accepting Tang hole to accept the tapered tang, although considered very early and rare, gebruder heller balloon man logo almost always is not scene with the slant grip, so with that being said i think this one has a chance i would like to see better pics of the scabbard bands and throat screws, the blade is a bit of a shame looks like steel wool or (the effects of a child stabbing the dirt do the same thing) I really believe the blade is real but i would need a hands on to inspect it all together,


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charlie #230563 10/17/2010 02:39 AM
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Sorry guys I can not jump on the bandwagon the quality of that blade including the tang is not right IMO.

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like i said a hands on would be the only way i could give 2 thumbs up, Tom you say the quality of that blade meaning scratches and it not being mint or somthing else? Also the tang is not right? there is what looks may be some grinding on the tang possibly to fit the 2nd style grip, but other than that the tang looks fine, can we get a crisp photo of the makers mark? thanks

Last edited by Roy Carroll; 10/17/2010 08:41 AM.

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also i would liketo see the inside of that crossguard to see if there is any evidence of being reemed out recently to accept that wide tang


"Drive Fast and Take Chances"
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[img]http://enter.net/~ckktoys/franz35.JPG[/img]
[img]http://enter.net/~ckktoys/franz36.JPG[/img]
[img]http://enter.net/~ckktoys/franz37.JPG[/img]
[img]http://enter.net/~ckktoys/franz38.JPG[/img]

mananero #230583 10/17/2010 11:37 AM
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mananero #230585 10/17/2010 11:38 AM
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Roy you are only a hour from me. One day I will come out and buy you hardees on route 30.

mananero #230604 10/17/2010 03:25 PM
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Digitally enhanced maker mark.

Rupprecht_F.jpg (2.3 KB, 202 downloads)

[Linked Image from germandaggers.com]
Visit us at www.GermanDaggers.com
Contact me at Vern@GermanDaggers.com
Vern #230608 10/17/2010 04:43 PM
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Roy I agree with your observations you could be right maybe it’s the buff job running up the tang that’s giving me a bad feeling. In the end we have to feel comfortable with the stuff we own and this one does not provide that feeling for me.

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I got this one and going to bring it to the SOS for analysis and comments. It's for sure a interesting army dagger. Upon 'In-hand', one will note, the fit of the tang and all parts. All those that come and see, can then comment on this thread so we can all learn.

I will include photos here as unfortunately they seemed to have disappeared.






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That's the last. smile

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Serge, thank you for reanimating this interesting thread and showing again pics of this discussed dagger.
Btw, when you do a search in the net, you will find that today there is a Franz Rupprecht at Düren (!), a tailor for festive fashion. Whatever this information is worth...
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #326167 01/29/2017 04:22 AM
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Thank You wotan. My search found that there was apparently a quality Unform shop in Duren. Perhaps it's the same Franz Rupprecht shop- must be !
Here is a listing on a Army officers Uniform at auction a few years ago. Note it was made by Franz Rupprecht of Duren:

>>
1) Uniform tunic and pants for an Artillery Oberfeldwebel (Master Sgt.), with red trim on the shoulder boards, untrimmed collar bars, and an embroidered eagle patch on the right breast. 2) Tunic for a General Staff Oberst (Colonel), with carmine pink trimmed shoulder boards, untrimmed collar bars and a silver bullion eagle patch. Brown silk inner lining, with concealed dagger hanger. 3) Tunic for an Artillery Major, with red trimmed and accented boards and tabs, silver bullion eagle, a blue service ribbon, internal belt and dagger hanger, and a "Franz Rupprecht/Duren" label. 4) Tunic, Artillery Oberleutnant (Senior/1st Lt.), with silver bullion eagle and internal belt. 5) Artillery cap, green fabric with red trim, bullion wreath, silver chinstrap and yellow silk lining with "Erel" makers marks. 6) Artillery cap, as 5 with alloy eagle and unmarked lining. Items are in fair to very good condition.<<

Currently my thoughts are that this is one dagger that was specially ordered by this Uniform shop. They seemed to have their own company logo. Research is continuing, but Duren suffered a huge bomging raid by a oversized Allied airforce due to the larger primary target was fogged over, while the secondary target, Duren, a much smaller target, took the full brunt of the bombing.

Photo of Duren in 1945;


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The maker mark on this blade is very elaborate for a uniform shop/distributor mark. Uniform shop markings tend to be plain Jane listing of the name and the location without a trademarked image.

Very interesting and unique marking for sure.

John


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Originally Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner)
My search found that there was apparently a quality Unform shop in Duren. Perhaps it's the same Franz Rupprecht shop- must be !
3) Tunic for an Artillery Major, with red trimmed and accented boards and tabs, silver bullion eagle, a blue service ribbon, internal belt and dagger hanger, and a "Franz Rupprecht/Duren" label.
Currently my thoughts are that this is one dagger that was specially ordered by this Uniform shop. They seemed to have their own company logo. Research is continuing, but Duren suffered a huge bomging raid by a oversized Allied airforce due to the larger primary target was fogged over, while the secondary target, Duren, a much smaller target, took the full brunt of the bombing.


Imho this is a most interesting twist! JohnZ is right that the distributer marks "normaly" have been very plain and simple.
But sometimes we do know very few when it comes to "why" something has been done at these times and I think it is pretty possible that it is a special distributor´s mark. There have been etched distributor marks for sure (eg. DÜRBECK - WIEN) and why not add a certain logo from an uniform tailor by request.
Uncommon but not impossible.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #326186 01/29/2017 05:27 PM
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Good catch, Serge

Is it possible to identify the probable manufacturer from the scabbard / crossguard / etc ?

Dave #326187 01/29/2017 05:56 PM
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John,

I agree that typically distributor marks are only the name of the shop & sometimes the location as well. Very rarely do we see some sort of stylized logo, as we see with Linnenbrügger & Ellermann, Bielefeld fire bayonets.

Just looking at the blade mark with nothing else to go on, it would be easy to think that the mark was that of a previously unknown manufacturer but we know that even small cottage-style makers had enough product out there so that the firm itself likely would not be completely unknown. This type of mystery is usually reserved for these obscure & very local retail outlets.

Very cool dagger!


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Dave #326192 01/29/2017 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dave
Good catch, Serge

Is it possible to identify the probable manufacturer from the scabbard / crossguard / etc ?


Dave, It probably is. However, we will need a Army specialist like Tom or Kevin for that, as I don't know.

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Generic-B crossguard so no help there to ID a maker.
Originally Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner)
Originally Posted By: Dave
Good catch, Serge

Is it possible to identify the probable manufacturer from the scabbard / crossguard / etc ?


Dave, It probably is. However, we will need a Army specialist like Tom or Kevin for that, as I don't know.


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