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#225419 08/08/2010 05:31 PM
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Here's a nice surprise:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=450547&highlight=boyle

Rare to see the ring and striped box come out at the same time. I know of just a handfull. Funny thing is, these always seem to come out with 1944 rings.


Craig Gottlieb
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The link doesn't work. Which area of the forum was the topic started in ?

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think it was in the WAF SS insignia and uniforms forum. It looks like it was removed because I think there was a vailed sales pitch.


"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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Originally Posted By: JR
The link doesn't work. Which area of the forum was the topic started in ?


http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=60&f=24

Best

Ric

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Still not there just a award doc with no photo

Sepp

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things don't make sense at WAF sometimes..
Topic was to show a ring with a rope box.. I have heard the ring/box went to Don for a COA.. After that ??.
Now it seems Craig has it?.. Why they would delete/move the WHOLE topic instead of the sales attempt I don't know. IF anyone has photos saved please feel free to post them here...

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Originally Posted By: Gaspare
things don't make sense at WAF sometimes..
Topic was to show a ring with a rope box.. I have heard the ring/box went to Don for a COA.. After that ??.
Now it seems Craig has it?.. Why they would delete/move the WHOLE topic instead of the sales attempt I don't know. IF anyone has photos saved please feel free to post them here...


G.

not the first time new owner request to delete pics for some reason, I guess it's the case.

Anyway here are some pics

Ric

SSHR21-12-44Klohn1.jpg (118.64 KB, 419 downloads)
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2

SSHR21-12-44Klohn6.jpg (121.69 KB, 421 downloads)
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3

SSHR21-12-44Klohn4.jpg (121.41 KB, 418 downloads)
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SSHR21-12-44Klohn9.jpg (73.65 KB, 416 downloads)
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The family member had posted it online, looking for value and where/how it should be sold. He ended up sending the ring and box to Don for an authentication. Things fell apart with Don, so the guy demanded that Don return the objects, which he sent to me, and which I purchased. Don told him the box was a "poor quality reproduction from the 1940s" but offered to take it off his hands. I'm glad Don did that, because the kid got really pissed off, asked for it back, and sent it to me. I was very glad to buy the set, as the box is 100% original in my view. I frankly didn't know the ring topic had been pulled, but no matter. Here are the photos.

DSC04500.jpg (66.16 KB, 532 downloads)
DSC04502.jpg (70.82 KB, 532 downloads)
DSC04503.jpg (66.27 KB, 534 downloads)
DSC04507.jpg (58.08 KB, 531 downloads)
DSC04508.JPG (49.84 KB, 528 downloads)

Craig Gottlieb
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Ric, Craig , thanks much for the photos.. I'm sure Don thought the ring real, maybe a bad day for the box...
,anyway,,

,,Beautiful ring and box.
So, what is the thought here,these rope boxes were for the latter pattern rings [?].. Has there been one with the early pattern ring ever found??

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Gaspare: The three rings I have observed "fresh" from a veteran with boxes, had this rope-band box (identical to this one). One I bought out of the woodwork a couple years ago, one bought by Larry Lips (Teply ring), and now this one. I call it a "Type II" box in my book, but the label is not meant to indicate sequence, but merely category.

Also, Don did think the ring was real, and said so in the certificate. Unfortunately, he also stated that the ring was missing the double-runic flaw (which it is not), as well as other flaws (which it is not). Telling the owner that the ring was defective, and the box was fake, doesn't sound like a very good day for Don all around, especially when he tried to buy the set for $5000.

post.jpg (64.06 KB, 486 downloads)
Last edited by Craig Gottlieb; 08/20/2010 02:34 AM.

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Gorgeous ring/box set and absolutely stunning set. The engraving of the date is so close to the Frank ring in font, it most likely had to be the same jeweler on both of these 44 rings.

!16.jpg (92.8 KB, 481 downloads)
!16c.jpg (70.82 KB, 480 downloads)
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Even the letters in the saluatation of both of these Dec. 44 issued rings, are very close. That was one of the challenges that Don had with this ring, was improper engraving..........?

!14a.JPG (84.96 KB, 467 downloads)
!14b.jpg (41.43 KB, 466 downloads)
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And but the sole common letter in the 2 names. Upward slant line on the "n" and the little feet on the vertical base's

!15a.JPG (89.91 KB, 463 downloads)
!16d.jpg (62.37 KB, 455 downloads)
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After reviewing this with Vern, I have removed some posts that had nothing to do with the subject at hand.

We'd like to remind you to discuss the merits of the artifacts, not people.

Dave

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Dave:

Thank you for editing this thread.

Frankly, it was going into an area that I was starting to get really uncomfortable with.

I love the information and the background on these cases and would like to see pictures of the different varieties.

John


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. Thanks Dave..

Don called me today.. Not really wanting to get in the middle of this I let him talk and just didn't want to listen. what I do remember him saying is that:
IF this ring/box could make it to the MAX,,,and the Lipps ring/box also went there he'd prove the box is fake.. this shouldn't be hard to do as Craigs always there and so is Mr.Lipps.. He also gave a slightly different explanation about what happened while certifying the ring.
There is always 2 sides of a story,,,and then there's the truth.. wink

So that's where we are at with the ring. Don doesn't like the box, Craig does. Both agree the ring is good. But there are others that emailed me saying both rings are fake! I have invited the 'lurkers' who have emailed me to join up and post. Get a debate going with some good facts and conclusions,,,we;ll see.....

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Hey G,

I agree,always two sides to a story and hope that Craig and Don plus others will have a friendly and educational debate on this forum for all to learn and not a closed door session.

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Originally Posted By: Gaspare
...Don called me today.. Not really wanting to get in the middle of this I let him talk and just didn't want to listen. what I do remember him saying is that:
IF this ring/box could make it to the MAX,,,and the Lipps ring/box also went there he'd prove the box is fake.. this shouldn't be hard to do as Craigs always there and so is Mr.Lipps.. He also gave a slightly different explanation about what happened while certifying the ring.
There is always 2 sides of a story,,,and then there's the truth.. wink

.....


G.

since WWMF is still alive, any chance to read there Don's side of the story ?

Ric

Last edited by Ric Ferrari; 08/22/2010 01:30 PM.
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Ric,, I don't know. Don has posted on there once in a while but nothing regular. Dons a 9 to 5er, hard worker, not a young kid anymore [like the rest of us!] and usually hates all the forums as he's totally non confrontational..
BUT, he's always game to show or debate something in person.. He's issued a 'in person' challange just last year with the other party never bringing him the ring in question to him!
Best I could tell you is to invite him there to explain.

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Gaspare: This "Max Show Evaluation" - I would love to do this, and am glad Don is willing to clear this matter up. Don doesn't cover boxes at all in his book, but you can see a pretty good treatment of them in mine.

In the interim, I'd be glad to post side-by-side pictures of this ring box, with the Teply ring box, and other striped boxes. In the mean time, I wonder if someone could get Don to explain to us exactly what "flaws" were missing from this ring, which made it so inexpensive and undesirable. Remember, Don says this ring is fine, but told the owner that it was not a very sellable ring, because the panels were missing the telltale flaws. His certificate states this in Don's own writing, so it shouldn't be hard for him to explain.

One interesting side note: Don's certificate also states that the box is a "poor quality reproduction" from the 1940s or 1950s - something that anybody can see is not true. Even if it WERE a reproduction, the quality is amazing, which, combined with the "missing flaw" statement which is ludicrous, makes me wonder what was really going on.

Last edited by Craig Gottlieb; 08/23/2010 05:00 AM.

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You posted this on WAF,,and I only think it fair I post it here too -

"since I obviously have an axe to grind with Don Boyle, and don't consider myself unbiased. "


As far as Don not into boxes,,,Don saw a box just at the last MAX that he said was bad. Everyone said he was wrong the box is good. Turned out it was fake..

A member here was supposed to bring a ring Don doesn't like for a in hand in the face look see,,,the member was there, ring too, but guess what, he never brought the ring to Dons table..

,, so best thing I can tell you is to bring your new box, and since Mr.Lipps is always at the MAX maybe you can invite him officially to bring the box and get it all over with.. what ever may be will be...

Last edited by Gaspare; 08/23/2010 05:08 AM.
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Actually, the box belonged to Bob Hritz, and everyone I spoke to knew it was original. But no matter. I'll definitely bring this set, and even if I sell it before then, I'll ask to retain it so Don can give us an education. In the interim, we should remember that Don made multiple "mistakes" on the certificate, especially when he wrote that the ring was missing "the two die flaws" - we all know there are more than 2 so-called die flaws, and we can all see by the following photos, that they are present. Why Don might want to represent the ring as not as desirable, and why he might want to state that the box was fake when most collectors are commenting that it's obviously real, nobody will know except Don. But when he raised his offer from $5000 for the set, "just to help the kid out" I think the pieces start to come together.

rune1.jpg (94.4 KB, 265 downloads)
rune2.jpg (83.46 KB, 268 downloads)
rune3.jpg (111.42 KB, 265 downloads)
rune4.jpg (92.91 KB, 263 downloads)

Craig Gottlieb
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And the last panel. At least Don got one thing right : the ring was original. And thanks to his poor detective work, the owner got a lot less than he could have, for the ring. I actually paid the guy $2000 more than he asked for, after receiving the bad news from Don that his box was fake and his ring not-desirable.

rune5.jpg (106.88 KB, 225 downloads)
DB Klohn.jpg (113.1 KB, 224 downloads)

Craig Gottlieb
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The ring issue is an open-and-shut case, and Don's mistake cost a family thousands of dollars (it would have been more of a loss, had they agreed to sell to Don for the price he was offering, which was $5000). As for the box, anyone who wants to compare this box to the Teply box, need only look in my book. Don doesn't show any good photos of boxes in his book, but there are plenty in mine. But yes, I look forward to hearing exactly why Don says the box is a "poor quality copy."


Craig Gottlieb
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Everything, I can think of to write here, would only do one thing..."Get me BANNED from GDC for life"


Sepp

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Well now that the MAX is over....Did you guys sit down and hash this out??? Is the Box/Ring ORIGINAL or not??

"IF this ring/box could make it to the MAX,,,and the Lipps ring/box also went there he'd prove the box is fake.. this shouldn't be hard to do as Craigs always there and so is Mr.Lipps"

Sepp

GDC 0292 Gold

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I didn't happen..A very sad tale all around..
IF you have some time to waste give this a read:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455744



*

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Thanks Gaspare...I agree "very sad for sure" !!!But I knew what Gottlieb's motivation was from the very start!



Regards,Sepp


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