UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Army dagger. Question.

Hi guys, got a dagger. What are the views of the wire on the handle [img]http://[IMG]http://ipicture.ru/uploads/100723/3N11NS5hnX.jpg[/img] [/img]

Who is the maker Klaas ?

No, marking WKC

Well this wrap is generally accepted when seen on a Klaas a letter exists from Klaas stating they did make this variation it resides in someone�s collection Really can not say if your dagger is good or not many collectors would shy away from such a dagger.

I always have questioned these daggers but on the positive side the insides of the wire holes seem to be the same color as the rest of the grip indicating they have been there for many years.

Houston, I am totally with you concerning your reservations towards the army grip wire. Imo the "KLAAS-statement" has it�s origin in a (desired?) misinterpretation of a photograph. The story goes that a photograph of a KLASS army dagger with wired grip was sent to the KLAAS firm and the question was if they made (")such(") a dagger. The answer was, "yes, we made such a dagger". Imo they simply meant "yes, we did make ARMY daggers". The following comment within the collectorship was "KLAAS did produce armies with wired grips" which imo is an absolute nonsense.
Don�t forget that firms did promote their edged weapons "conforming to regulations". They for sure did not have any idea to produce such a dagger which clearly was against regulations.
When you do "understand" an army grip the "wiring" is representated by the small, sharp edge between the rounded threads. There is no real wire required.
I only can repeat (please do not take it in any political way!): If you want to collect german items you have to understand german.
Just my thoughts.

Hello.
Thank you for your help.
The subject came from a family of a veteran. Maybe the chain added later

Wotan:
I am the person who Klaas wrote the letter to. I sent them an 8"x 10" photo of just the hilt fittings. I specifically asked if they made such an Army dagger with the wire wrap, Their answer was in a few different letters over a two month period. They did confirm producing such a grip. When I sold the dagger in '92 all the paperwork went with it. It has been is two different major collections since.
Had I realized that I needed an attorney to write my letter more clearly, I would have done so.
When I got the Klaas dagger in question, I checked and could only find 4 or 5 others, Weyersberg, Eickhorn and Klaas. Since then I see at least one at every show. I even saw a copy of the letter written to me attached to another dagger.
One last point, look at the cover photo on Tom Wittmann's Army dagger book. What is that on Lutze's dagger?
Brian Rich

The longer I am in this hobby I can see why people get the hell out of it! Statements just seem to spring up in this hobby these days ... often when someone has NOT even handled such pieces! Its the joys of the internet I guess! I often wonder why many Third Reich Collectors do not collect souvenir teaspoons or something similar! Would be soo much easier for them!

Okay ... further to the dagger Notguru refers to. It was veteran purchased along with a 2nd example by a Mr Leonard Lasher in 1958 or 1959. Lasher, a USPS truck driver purchased the said daggers in Philadelphia, PA. The two daggers were then onsold to a Delaware dealer, Mike Marine, in the early 1970's. In 1983 Notaguru purchased one of these daggers. That daggers history from then onwards is known exactly.

Further to this discussion, I have personally had discussions with Tom Wittmann on these pieces. Tom has informed me he sold an identical dagger to Robert Richardson of Philadelphia in 1981. According to Tom, Richardson also wrote to the Klaas firm and was advised that the wire wrapping was an option available from their firm available until 1938.

I guess we just move on and destroy these items. My full tang stamped Fredericus full name tang stamped Dinger damascus (ex Mike Leone) Army dagger gets chopped up today! i cannot live with it being original anymore! Time to exit this hobby!

I like this grip and it looks period to me, but much is in the eye and mind of the beholder. I have seen these wire-wrapped army grips appear over the years from time to time, but very seldom. If I recall correctly, Johnson had one for sale quite a few years ago. It would be little trouble to add wire to a grip, during the period or postwar. That they were factory produced may be a little
iffy," but not beyond possibility. Special order items could be had for a price. In my view, the wire would not add significant value to an army dagger.

What I am responding to is this statement!!

The following comment within the collectorship was "KLAAS did produce armies with wired grips" which imo is an absolute nonsense.

... I do get rather tired of seeing mis-information spread on these forums! That is one main reason I do not bother coming on here much anymore! In fact the ONLY reason I am replying to this is that this posting has been brought to my attention and once again the hobby is being done a diservice by the internet!

Such daggers DID exist whether some on here wish to believe it or not! (This tends to remind me of the garbage that started on here years ago about smooth and serrated tail Himmler daggers for those who were around then!) I totally agree wire wrapped Armies examples DO exist out there that have been put together especially since the first one of these daggers appeared in print with the Klaas letter! By the way there are as far as I know VERY few people who know the exact story behind the Klaas letter and with the way it has been used to provide proof of other pieces that story will be staying private to protect the authenticity of the original book featured piece!

So please, when a person has spent at least 2 years of their life solely verifying the existence or non-existence of a piece, writing to countless individuals and firms, paying to get translations done, tracking down original owners of a piece ... put a little more thought into statements!

I also fear for this hobby VERY much! It is one of the main reasons (and as a dealer too) I am starting to sell off my own collection! I have been collecting since the 1970's but unfortunately DO see prices doing strange things in more recent years! I also see VERY few younger people coming into this hobby! If we continue to provide misinformation and uncertainty the few new collectors who are attracted to hobby will not be in it for long!

My statement were simply my personal thoughts, corresponding to my 40+ years of collecting in german regions and my personal observations. Take it or leave it.
I read all other comments and will take them or leave them
Sorry for having a personal opinion on certain things.
@ Lutze�s dagger: This is an HONOUR DAGGER and had no need to conform ANY regulations.
@ grip wire of the certain grip shown in this thread: The attachment differs in several minute details to any period attachment of grip wire known by me.
Regards,

Maxwell The internet is a double edged sword but in the end it is the way the world does business. I personally think the forums are a good thing they bring collectors together and bring out varied opinions. This case both sides were presented and I personally believe Klaas did make a dagger like this whether other collectors do or don�t is up to them but this information was presented and I am sure some collectors benefited from it.

hello; Not to beat a dead horse..... no one is an expert. we ALL learn some thing new every day. wire on army handles is "new" to me. maybe I noticed but, did not retain.
biggest issue ,is how WE give opinions here & else where.
Personally ,I know a dealer who has had items bought & returned all because of forums like this.
he has no issues on returns But ,always likes to know why.
and hearing that he posted photos and 6 out of 10 people said it was bad AND with NO specific reason given by any one why , rubs him the wrong way. the items were "no brainer" original , straight from the vet (I WAS THERE).
Now days he gets nuts on buying anything, spent $1,000.00 dollars on very exspencive books, & will buy ONLY items that conform to the books. HE assumes that the arm chair experts have these same books too. so if it dose not conform, don't buy it to resell = it will be coming back for a refund. and that is said.
NOT to jump on any well known authors / experts but, all of us hear these names tossed around and we all know that those SAME books have some wrong info., and at ussually have a lot laking info.in them. IE. book only mentions 17 makers of the 2d luft dagger, my count is about double that. Just proving ,none of us are experts & we ALL are learning ,even after 65 years post war. jeff h.

Jeff:

You are right on...

Books are for guidance and education. Even the Bible has some (maybe a lot) of misinformation.

I have an Eickhorn Luft2 with WKC fittings... textbook, no, plausible, yes.

Most of us collect these things for their intrinsic beauty and their place in history, not for resale. Provenance, letters from gurus and authorities only come when trying to sell or make a quick buck and authentication is readily available form 'experts' at a price, of course.

If you like it and are happy with it, enjoy it and don't get caught up in the world of self appointed expertise.

And there are new books being written all of the time.

John