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JohnZ Offline OP
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I am not sure if I had asked this question before, but I have a Herder Sports School SS dagger that is numbered 67840 on the crossguard and on the scabbard throat.

Here some pics of the dagger.

Obverse.JPG (38.16 KB, 610 downloads)
Reverse.JPG (37.1 KB, 608 downloads)
Obverse Etch.JPG (39.94 KB, 606 downloads)
Reverse Etch.JPG (39.34 KB, 606 downloads)
TM.JPG (39.21 KB, 604 downloads)

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JohnZ Offline OP
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And here are the pics of the S/N.

Does anyone have any ideas as to who this is?

John

Crossguard No 67840.JPG (39.12 KB, 599 downloads)
Scabbard No 67840.JPG (37.87 KB, 600 downloads)
Obverse Grip.JPG (39.33 KB, 599 downloads)
Reverse Grip.JPG (38.94 KB, 601 downloads)

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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He's not in "The Key".


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Contact me at Vern@GermanDaggers.com
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Try Ross Kelbaugh

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Hi JohnZ:

Sorry to report that the closest I have found so far is SS Mann No. 67 841. Such are the frustrations of serial number research. I have more than a dozen numbered SS daggers on file of "one off's."

This is only the third numbered Furth Sports Schools I have noted. I was able to identify one for Robert.

Regards,

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com


Last edited by Ross Kelbaugh (SS-Researcher); 07/17/2010 12:16 AM.

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JohnZ Offline OP
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Thank you Vern and Ross.

It's still neat, though.

John


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Great dagger John,, I would not mind having a numbered piece myself, and not knowing the owner,, at least i would have one. Best Larry


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More than neat John-fabulous-very jealous! have we any ides how many of these Furth daggers are in collections?

Paul


FUR EHR' UND PFLICHT BIS HERZ UND KLINGE BRICHT
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JohnZ Offline OP
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Paul:

I picked this piece up form Paul Hogle a couple of years back. Just this year, he had another one on his site with a different etch pattern on the blade.... I dithered too long on it and it ended up in Russia, I think.

I know of three different etch patterns for the Furth School etch. Two of them were posted on an earlier GDC thread... hope they get up soon.

John


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Here's another Furth dagger (this one in my auction). It's the first Boker I have ever seen.

http://www.cgmauctions.com/detail.asp?id=936&n=SS-Dagger-Sportschule-Furth-by-Boker-Personalized



Craig Gottlieb
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JohnZ Offline OP
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Craig:

I am watching this one... interesting etch pattern.

John


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It looks like the etched one's Wittmann shows in his SS book or am I missing something?

Last edited by zorro; 01/24/2012 03:04 PM.

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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John,
I too am unable to help however that is a very interesting piece.

I have only seen 2 or 3 of these...very nice.

Rich


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Years ago, I had one walk into one of my hotel buys. But i never did end up with it, it has been so long ago , i do not even remember what i offered, but I guess it was not enough.It was in the Washington DC area.
Thanks
Bob


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Has it ever been confirmed that these are original? I am no expert but the quality of the etching on the one's shown do not appear to be done very well. JMO

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I am told that the reason for the sports school etch is different in depth/look from that on the front and the trademark is that the award etch was applied to a man's existing dagger.

Said another way, the students already had their daggers. If they won the prize/contest, they handed over their dagger for engraving and were not awarded a new dagger.

Makes sense, but unproven, I think.

What say you?

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I believe this is the case. It's the only way to explain the fact that there are so many different manufacturers that show up with a genuine Sports School etch. Note the Boker in my current auction ... the only boker I have seen with the etch.


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Craig... regarding the description of the Boker in your auction... Boker did NOT use "paint" to augment their motto etch. If that dagger has paint in the motto, it was added post war. Most likely to replace the burnishing which was lost when, as you put it... "under very close scrutiny, (the blade) appears to show a slight polish."

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JR Offline
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I'm not sure if Boker used exactly the same process to darken their motto's as the other manufactures did, but when you see one that has never been touched it's a sight to behold.

DB9.JPG (114.67 KB, 258 downloads)
DB13.JPG (108.87 KB, 255 downloads)
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You're right JR, Boker is the best of the best in SS daggers!

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It is my understanding that original owners sometimes painted their daggers motto.I would never remove the paint to make the dagger conform to what we think is correct.


"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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JR Offline
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Never heard of that........... please supply us some info, documentation an examples on that one........If I understand you right, the SS soldiers that only owned Bokers did this, as I know of no other maker that produced a motto so dark as the ones that came from this manufacture.

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Originally Posted By: JR
Never heard of that........... please supply us some info, documentation an examples on that one........If I understand you right, the SS soldiers that only owned Bokers did this, as I know of no other maker that produced a motto so dark as the ones that came from this manufacture.
COLLECTING THE DAGGERS OF THE THIRD REICH Vol 5 page 9 Not just Bokers but all SS and SA makers can sometimes be found with painted mottos,this painting was not done at factorys but by the owners. I have owned and have seen a few of them.

Last edited by zorro; 01/28/2012 05:05 AM.

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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With SA daggers, the 1st trademark that Heller used with the anchor, Malsch & Ambron, and Kober, were 3 firms that used a paint type of substance to enhance their blade motto's. The collectors here may know of a couple of other firms that did it to. But to find an SS dagger that had a painted darken motto would be out of the ordinary and caution would be advised, as this usually would point to an enhancement done most likely post war.

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JR You asked for documentation and I gave it to you. From two of the leading dagger experts in the world Tom Wittmann and Tom Johnson who contradicts everything you say on the subject of painted mottos.


"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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JR Offline
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I've never seen an SS blade etch that was black painted that I considered to be period done. Perhaps you have one, or another member here has one. I'm sure that we would all be interested in seeing something new on this topic. Perhaps you can start a separate topic on the subject.

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It's no concern of mine because I'm not bidding on the dagger.My point is don't change an item because it is perceived to be not period.When there are experts who have looked at thousands of daggers that say it may very well be period. Thats it.


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JR Offline
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I started a thread in the SA forum on painted and burnished motto's...................... would be nice to see you add some of your photos and info.

Last edited by JR; 01/28/2012 06:39 PM.
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The mottos done by Boker and others were done by using acid, correct? Paint would have come off too easy IMO.

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Originally Posted By: Erich
The mottos done by Boker and others were done by using acid, correct? Paint would have come off too easy IMO.
Yes it is not as easy as it looks to get paint to stick after polish and who knows what else has been done to a blade.JR I really don't have anything to add to the discussion because I have no pictures of the two that I have owned.One a Boker SS with the late trademark and a SA with the eyeglasses trademark both long gone.Why would it not be done,they repainted their scabbards to dress up the daggers why not touch up the motto.I have looked at hundreds of daggers and have only seen two,not seen often,but IMO I think it was done sometimes.Like I said Wittmann said he does see it sometimes also.I just don's see why it would not be done.If there every was a canidate for the motto to be spruced up it would be the SS Furth dagger,after the new inscription was added to a used dagger ,it would be nice to have the motto an inscription match.We will never know but I feel highly likely.

Last edited by zorro; 01/28/2012 07:19 PM.

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They touched up or painted scabbards because the scabbards were visible during inspections. Blades were not. I have never seen anything that even hinted that the daggers were ever drawn during a ceremony or inspection.

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Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus
They touched up or painted scabbards because the scabbards were visible during inspections. Blades were not. I have never seen anything that even hinted that the daggers were ever drawn during a ceremony or inspection.
I never said they were drawn or inspected where did that come from? I do think the Hitler Youth use to draw their knifes at Nuremburg but I'm not sure.Then why did they put inscriptions on the blades if no one ever saw or cared about the blades or what was on them? Do you think Wittmann just made that up that sometimes one sees them with painted mottos?

Last edited by zorro; 01/29/2012 12:33 AM.

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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I'd think inspections would include the blade...Couldn't picture scrutinizing everyhting but thre blade.Also,must be inevitable that of the many daggers made,some were touched up in all sorts of ways,some of these guys[ss men]were on OCD overdrive about there uniforms,daggers,and gear,I'd think......just another IMHO.......

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Surprised there was little interest in Hans Haubner, SS No. 47 125. Of all the numbered SS daggers I am aware of world-wide, only four have the Sportschule Fürth etch. Of these, the original owners have only been identified for two of them. And in the case of Hans Haubner, his is the only one where his attendance at the Fürth school is confirmed by a notation (1 1/2 months Enlisted personnel School Fürth) on his Stammkarte. Haubner was a World War veteran who had been a prisoner of war then. He joined the SS in 1933 (1933 Böker Dienstdolch is proper) and joined the Waffen-SS in 1941. He held the rank of Hauptsturmführer and in October 1943, he ends up in Freiwilligen Division “Galizien” (14th Waffen-SS Grenadier Division, “1st Ukrainian”). The unit was destroyed in the battle of Brody in July 1944. Haubner died in August at Sklabina, Slovakia. He is buried in Block 5 among the unknown soldiers in Vazec, Slovakia since his remains could not be positively identified for an individually marked grave. I suspect he was mortally wounded but hope to find his cause of death. No photo for him, but this is the kind of story connected to a rare dagger that excites me.

Enjoy!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

stamm01a.JPG (34.76 KB, 298 downloads)
fstamm01a.JPG (53.58 KB, 298 downloads)
HaubnerWAsT.JPG (107.71 KB, 299 downloads)
Last edited by Ross Kelbaugh (SS-Researcher); 02/12/2012 07:32 PM.

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Gratulation Ross!!!!

greeting trussa

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Originally Posted By: trussa
Gratulation Ross!!!!

greeting trussa

hi Ross, place not vorgedet my Ss Nr. 219681 Thanks

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Hi All:

Back from the SOS and just heard from the WASt with another piece to the Haubner story. He was killed in late August 1944 during a raid by "bandits" ("Banditenüberfall") on a transport train. I imagine these were partisans. At the time he was a SS-Hauptsturmführer with the SS-Pionier-Bataillon 14, 14. Waffen-Grenadier Div. SS (Galizische Nr. 1)

Making history personal!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com


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As I understand it Fürth was not the only SS-Sportschule, and among any other activities it was one of the places you could go to earn your SA-Sportabzeichen and Reichssportabzeichen. With the course itself lasting six weeks and 1. Lehrgang running from April 4th to May 12, 1934. As for the inscriptions themselves they are not consistent with factory standards. Sharing some characteristics like the dates with the unusual shaped numbers. But the “5” in “5 Lehrgang” is an exception, and so are the “4’s” with the (19) 34 date which are also different from each other - with the overall quality of the etchings being noticeably uneven. Also, the inscription “Zur Erinnerung a.” (In Memory of) on Craig’s dagger, along with the “5. Lehrgang” (5th Course/Class) on John’s seems to me to be something like getting a commemorative class ring. Or maybe a “For My Service” type of dress bayonet, but only for those that wanted it. Versus some kind of prize or award because it seems to be something that the dagger owners had to pay for themselves (besides the cost of the daggers). FP

CG Spt Sch.jpg (48.51 KB, 123 downloads)
SS Spt Sch Furth.jpg (120.43 KB, 127 downloads)

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