UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum NSKK High Leader

In accordance with requests made to me by many members, I am starting a thread on the NSKK High Leader Dagger. For those of you not familiar with the dagger, it is a chained damascus piece that is very similar in construction to the SA Honor - with three notable differences:

1) NSKK Honor Daggers have a smooth-grain black leather colored scabbard.

2) NSKK Honor Daggers have two types of chains. Either an 800 silver chain that is unique to these pieces, or a standard-looking NSKK chain. Both chain configurations exhibit a very unique looking center scabbard fitting.

3) The reverse of the NSKK exhibits a stylized signature of Hunlein, the NSKK Korpsfuhrer.

Here are some photos.

In the above photo, note the presence of the textbook "brown" Eickhorn grip, found on almost all early SA Honor Daggers. The grip exhibits the solid 800 silver eagle found on all early Honor pieces (SA or SS). Below, here's another photo. Note crossguards are identical to standard SA Honor Daggers of the early variety.

This particular example is not in the best shape, which is the reason the crossguard-to-grip fit. Others are not so poorly fitted, and this should not be an indication of the normal quality found on these.

Another pic.

Here is the upper chain clip - very unique configuration. Note the lack of a functional snout-nose clip, and the presence of Gahr Munich silver stamps (which are always poorly stamped on these pieces).

Another shot, showing the unique center scabbard fitting. This fitting is found on examples with the silver chain (like this one) and the standard chain.

This is the faxcimile signature of Hunlein that appears on the reverse of every correct NSKK blade. All blades are maidenhair damascus and are exact matches to the early SA Honor.

Next photograph.

Last pic of this piece.

I will post photos later of an example that I owned. Mine was in much better shape, and exhibited the regular, NON silver chain. Anyway, it has been suggested by Fred Stephens that all of the NSKK High Leader daggers such as the one posted above are post-war fantasy pieces. I will let Fred explain his theory. Fred is an excellent researcher and will definitely put a good foot forward, and I look forward to his pronouncements about this dagger class. Fred is in the minority for thinking that these are fantasy pieces, but his bravery as an intellectual is noteworthy and admirable. Fred . . . the floor is yours.

I WANT ONE !!! ( or two )

WOW, I would think the hilt fittings would have been set to a much greater tolerance!Were these dags known for there bad fit? Why would anyone make a dagger with such craftmanship and just decide to belittle the most obvious and constantly shown area of the dagger , this to me is a great question, it looks as if an apprentice fit the hilt on that one. When it comes to top dollar and textbook, thats a flunkie! T

I agree with Tiep, I would think with the considerable expense & effort that went into making one of these daggers that more attention would have been paid to the grip fit. Other than that, a very interesting blade to behold. Thanks for sharing it Craig.

This particular example is indeed not indicative of the fit-and-finish of other examples. I will be posting additional photos tomorrow of other examples, for you all to enjoy. I also wish to invite an honest and frank discussion of these pieces. Consider this thread an invitation for input from anyone who has experience with these pieces (not a large group, since they are so rare). It's no secret that Fred Stephens does not believe these pieces to be real, and despite our recent differences, I wish to encourage and invite an honest, informed, and POLITE debate about these pieces. I may not be able, due to time constraints of a personal nature, to guide and participate with the same degree of intensity that many of you have come to expect from me, so I offer my apologies in advance. Also, if the debate degenerates into name calling, personal assaults, and generally ungentlemanly behavior, I encourage the administrators of this site to take corrective action.

Craig,
Great topic. Thanks for posting these pictures. I look forward to the debate and the opportunity to learn about these daggers. I wonder if any of the 'old hands' here on the forum (like Mr.Weinand) have ever seen or heard of one of these coming out of the woodwork.
All the best, Doug

Although I never had the luck to handle one of these in person I dare to make a general statement:
As "Germ.Daggers of WWII, Vol.II" by TMJ on pg 458/459 clearly shows an identical dagger in a PERIOD "in wear" pic (!) it is beyond each doubt that such daggers with such certain hanger configuration did exist. As in the same book credit is given to our member Jason Burmeister concerning an identical dagger, due to the well known superior knowledge of Jason Burmeister for me it is beyond each doubt that the dagger shown there (in the book) is an original period item.
The dagger shown here by the founder of GD.C, Craig seems to conform these daggers and looks to be period what we can see from the pics. Naturally, as mostly, an in hand inspection by an experienced collector (what I think already has happend) would be necessary for a final statement but I personally cannot find any obvious red flag (beside the mentioned and declared "fit-flaw") in the pics shown here.
Craig, thank you for showing and opening a discussion about these extravagant and extraordinairy daggers.
Such threads are a pleasure and a highlight for our forum!
Regards,

The base features of the Chained NSKK High Leader are identical to all Honor daggers produced by Eickhorn during the period with the exception that the reverse of the blade exhibits a stylized signature of Hunlein, the NSKK Korpsfuher. A unique feature of this pattern is the two styles of chains. The nickel chain is basically identical to that found on the model 36 and the 800 silver differs in that the upper connecting device is void of a clip. Instead the silver example is produced to accommodate the short leather hanger typically encountered on the 33 pattern political daggers. The center scabbard band on both is nickel. A few examples have had the upper device on silver chains period modified to incorporate an upper clip similar to the nickel example. Of the modified examples examined no two are alike.

#1

#2

#4

#5

#6

#7

#1 and #2 is a silver chain type with modified clip. Veteran Source.

#4 and #5 is a silver chain type. Veteran Source.

#6 and #7 is a nickel chain type. Veteran Source.

#3 is nickel chain type.

#8 and #9 is a silver chain type. Veteran Source.

Of interest is this collage of photos. It has been suggested by Fred Stephens that the Hunlein signature on the reverse of these daggers is a forgery because it is "radically different" from Hunlein's. While he is entitled to his opinion, I strongly disagree. The "disk" in the collage is an award plaque that I recently purchased directly out of the woodwork. The blade shot is from the first dagger I photographed. The photograph of the signature is from a document, hand signed by Hunlein, dedicated to Goebbels for his birthday (another document directly veteran acquired in Southern California by Bob Demel, along with many other photographs dedicated to Goebells.

#3

#8

#9

One last comment for the time being, as I am on the way out of town. About 2 years ago, myself and Jason Burmeister, and Brian Maederer purchased a very poorly-conditioned example of this dagger at one of the large German shows (I can't remember if it was Kassel or Stuttgart). The gentleman we purchased it from is a well-known picker in Germany that we have all done business with before. He told us that the family he bought it from discovered it in the attic of a barn in Bavaria. I know this is only 2nd hand knowledge from us, but it is important and relevant testimony.

I hope that the invitation to discuss these daggers is extended to those who have some experience in the area of manufacturing (including precision casting). From that perspective is it possible that for the first example that the silver top and lower cross guards are replacements?

And was the Otto Gahr company the only one who was supposed to have made them? Even accepting that the dagger has had a hard life. For the first example they do not appear to be of the quality seen with most known Gahr items. And that might also help explain the fit of the wooden grip which has already been commented on. And what seems to be in image number two, gaps at the ends of the lower cross guard in relation to the mouthpiece. Which is metal to metal.

I also think that it would be of interest to see the other two signatures closeup so that they could all be compared.

These are only my own personal observations of an interesting topic. And I’m looking forward to seeing the other dagger that was mentioned. FP

Otto Gahr was only responsible for the silver chains. Nothing else.

Jason is correct. The entire dagger, with the exception of the chain assembly, was Eickhorn. All of the photos posted are identical in every respect to Eickhorn production items. Fred is correct that the fit is a bit rough on the example I posted (I admitted this much in my first post), but the crossguards are 100% original. Here are photos of identical crossguards from two other original political Honor Daggers.

Although I did not own the NSKK dagger that I originally posted, I examined it in person, and am comfortable with my opinion. Having had experience owning approximately 10 political honor pieces (SS, SA, and one NSKK), and having personally examined at least 5 more, you can take it to the bank that all crossguards shown in these photos are original. Of interest is that maidenhair damascus was not particularly expensive, and is far more valuable to us as collectors as it was to the artisans who made it. Sure, maidenhair cost more, but it was nothing compared to 4 band turkish (this to address Billy G's excellent earlier point).

Have the tangs of either of these examples been examined for markings?
Jim

Thank you both for clarifying that. I was trying to come up with a rational explanation for why the wood grip seemed to fit so badly. I was speculating that the handle metal parts might have came from another dagger because of the grip fit - and to me what seemed to me to be a noticeable gap in the metal to metal fit of the crossguard/mouthpiece.

Those look like some very nice examples that were just posted, and I’m looking forward to seeing more images of the NSKK High Leader daggers. FP

The tangs are identical to all honor daggers from this period and are marked correctly.

Thank you for your invitation to participate in this thread. I regret to advise you that I will not be involving myself with this. This is not because I have doubts about my perception of these Huhnlein pieces, I consider them to be tampered with and modified, and I believe I have the evidence to prove it.

I am aware of the existing, authentic, photo of NSKK Korpsfuhrer Offermann wearing such a dagger with the wide form cartouche - and I also have a photo showing Huhnlein wearing a dagger with similar wide cartouche - and I believe that I can explain the existence of these features at that time.

However, you will have to wait until I publish my revised edition of R?R! and then you can see it all for yourselves.

I can now complete the book without restriction, instead of having to argue with a co-author about what is right or wrong.

Of course, please do debate the item on this thread, and post up photos, I will adopt the role of observer.

FJS

.........................

Fred: It's not like you to shy away from proposing your theory, which can be proposed here without threat of name-calling or personal ridicule. It's no secret that those with experience dealing first-hand with these daggers disagree with your theory, but it's your choice not to post. I have all of your objections here, as we have emailed back and forth extensively about the subject. However, since the emails were part of private correspondence bewteen us, I won't violate your confidence and will keep your theories to myself.

Back in the 80's I was involved with prying one out of the woodwork. It's in Tom Johnson's Vol. V. I have no idea of where it is today. All the major dealers had it in their hands and even owned it at different times since then. The only major player to badmouth it was Julian Milestone. He told me personally that he believed all of the NSKK Honor Daggers to be post war. What he based it on in part was the signature an the back of the blade. According to him it bears no resemblance to the guys real signature. I have no opinion one way or the other.