UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum TOM & RON'S SS BUY

Here is the latest lot of SS items from a retired US Colonel.

Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Can you say Dachau? Great find Ron!

I heard the Bill Shea scored a major collection also.

Nice lot I could use one of those handschar tabs... I have a handschar vet by me....
Joe

Close Ups:

Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

SS M43 Hat is the best I have ever seen.

Ron-
Nice score of Dachau insignia. However, as we know, some still believe they never existed.
Bob

Bob, I can't begin to count how many US veterans have sold me SS cloth that they got when touring Dachau after the war was over. There were bins of all description of SS cloth and those who got there at the end and immediately during the first part of the occupation came away with tons of it.
I am shocked that some collectors still don't believe in it. I have encountered FAR TOO MANY VETERANS who got some. Unfortunately, most are dead and dying, so the supply is going to be limited and into collections.
To those who don't believe, they will NEVER experience the thrill of the hunt and the satisfaction of the great buy. It is wonderful. NO DOUBT about the originality of the items and the satisfaction of getting it right from the man to captured it. MINT SS CLOTH and at a low price. Ah, the wonder of it all. To the doubtors: Eat your heart out.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron-
You and I have both had the joy of finding piles of the Dachau cloth among vet souvenirs. To those who do not believe, it is unfortunate for them.
Bob

Hi Ron ...Was your group part of the pile that Bill just bought? Or was it a whole diff deal? I saw some of Bill's group at last weekends Union NJ show

Ron, nice medal bar. Congrats on the find.

--dj--Joe

No, Tom and I have bought this directly from the veteran's family. I don't know who Bill Shea bought his group from, but it wasn't ours.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

See ..it just proves that it's still worth it to "beat the bushes" now and then ..never know what will come out !

I think there was a Thread on WAF about a guy who had Capture papers stating the insignia that he was bringing back was from Dachau. He also had the same insignia that was listed on the paperwork. It is real!

It always seems that most of the Collectors who don't believe that Dachau had piles of cloth are from Europe . Were there any British or French units in the area when the 42nd ID liberated it ?

One of my uncles was with the 36th ID in Dachau. I'm not sure when he was there but he came home in '45. He brought back a handful of unfinished tabs that he gave me back in '64. Like the rocket scientist that I am I traded all of it, including a dozen or so cufftitles, for two run of the mill daggers.

The 42d Rainbow Div. wasn't the only US Army unit to "capture" the Dachau Complex; at just about the same time the 42d Div. was entering the place from the southwest via the Hauptwache Gate, the 45th Inf.Div. (Thunderbirds) entered from an entirely different direction thru the railroad gate on the north side (this is where they found the abandoned Death Train which had arrived two days before from Buchenwald after a 3-week journey having many detours). This northern area is where the GI's of the 45th Div. lined-up Waffen-SS soldiers against the masonry wall that formed part of a coal bin & executed them. Tankers of the 20th Armoured Div. often claim to be liberators of the Dachau Complex, however they were wooden gate-crashers at the Allach works/camp, which was a good 7 miles south from the Dachau Complex. Ron & Tom, that's a fabulous find of original SS memorabilia. Congrats! Too bad no bevo skulls were in the group, as I know at least 20 collectors in earnest need of bevo skulls, (not the tropical type).I haven't snagged a find of Dachau goodies since back around 1975, & it was a huge batch, the veteran had used wrinkled-up cuffbands as soft cushioning dunnage for packaging heavier items!!

quote:

Originally posted by Schlesien:
The 42d Rainbow Div. wasn't the only US Army unit to "capture" the Dachau Complex;at just about the same time the 42d Div. was entering the place from the southwest via the Hauptwache Gate, the 45th Inf.Div. (Thunderbirds) entered from an entirely different direction

You're right except ... the third unit (20th Armored) was recognized as being one of the 3 "Liberators" by many --The 20th Armored here's the link --
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?ModuleId=10006164
(you might have to scroll down a little and click on the 20th Armored name)
The Dachau Flag was donated to the West Point Museum by the 42nd ..that's prob why I mentioned them without really going into depth. There were many other sub-camps liberated by other units as well but ..there's still a lot of " We were there first" going on even today.

Here is a Dachau haul I got several months ago from the son of a Deceased veteran. Heavy on cuff titles, not too many collar patches , also a nice fez and black panzer cap.He selected very well. There were also a lot of troops that went through Dachau for weeks after that were picking up stuff.

Nice hauls,nice to see the black panzer caps.Also nice to see "Klaushund" over here.I once had some suspicion about Dachau items ignited by Robin Lumsdens opinion but never collected it so I didnt really have a real opinion either way.But reading the forums and the input of many who have bought from vets including that thread that included the capture papers,theres no reason for anyone to doubt them.

John, one problem was that the Taiwan-made embroidered W/SS EM collar tabs imported & sold by Delta International of Lafayette, CA years ago closely resemble the Dachau originals. Each used to come in a plastic bag with a paper tag glued on with country of origin "Made in Taiwan". Many collectors confuse the Delta jobbies with the originals. Mostly because they don't have originals for comparison. However, close examination & side-by-side comparisons with the Dachau originals reveals the differences. I'm glad to see klaushund here too.

Just to set the record straight, as I was mentioned above.

I totally accept that many nice original items were brought back from Dachau. Like those items posted here, and also elsewhere by Bob Hritz and others.

What I was trying to get across a couple of years ago was that fake items are also passed off as Dachau originals. That's all.

This whole thread is CREEPY !

quote:

Originally posted by Robin Lumsden:
Just to set the record straight, as I was mentioned above.

What I was trying to get across a couple of years ago was that fake items are also passed off as Dachau originals. That's all.

I couldn't agree more Robin ...I've heard "That's from Dachau" and "that's why it's like new" at many shows ...last time I heard it , I told the Dealer I did not know there was a Dachau in Pakistan ..that shut him up (it was one of those TK banners with that retarded Skull)
I do wonder what happened to the leftovers ..unless maybe our guys completely cleaned house

Hi Zorro what exactly do you find creepy about it? cheers, Ryan

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/forums/showthread.php?t=42629&highlight=Dachau



http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82364&highlight=Dachau
Sorry perhaps I interpret things wrong.

I didn't read the whole thread but ...here's a Poll showing that 78% of Collectors have no problem with the Dachau cloth. I never doubted it .
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82364&highlight=gorget

Ryan,Buy the piece not the story.Does buying a item from Dachau add value to it ?.If it does I find it macabre. If the story is not documented it is just a story and it does not matter who tells it.

There was somewhere on these forums a documented Dachau find with capture papers but I cant find that link.I just posted the links above to help explain why some have doubted them and that I dont halucinate too badly.Personally I dont collect the Dachau items with the exception of a couple examples.I like the runic tabs and cufftitles but the foreign volunteer items hold no interest for me.

Zorro et all,
I always find the "buy the piece not the story" a little foolish. Sure, some dealers lie and fake items, but that's just part of the game. Everyday, merchants are telling a story with every piece they sell. You either believe in them and their reputation or you don't, but the I idea that you can't trust anyone should make you unable to exist in our society.
Part of what you pay for any service or item is your trust in the person who you buy the item from. Either you believe in your car dealer, your doctor, your lawyer or you don't. Either you believe what your supplier is telling you or you shouldn't buy from him.
This dealer's reputaion and the "story" is just part of the deal. You can usually tell on how well he is preceived by the rest of the collectors who you are friends with and talk to about the hobby.
So, don't get to caught up in don't believe the story. Often the story is the best indication of where the item comes from and how much you can relie on the originality. Remember, these pieces of Third Reich history just didn't walk across the ocean to the US. All the originals came via veterans or via European connections and all have a story. Find the best story that you can believe and you'll feel a lot better about the piece.
My feeling is that I am just satisfied that I was able to talk with the veteran and buy the item from him directly. I feel much better telling you that I have no doubt in the piece because I was the one who found it directly from the source. I don't have to make excuses or tell you so-n-so got it from such-n-such. Ain't life grand! Its really too bad everone can't experience this feeling.
JMO
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

quote:

Originally posted by zorro:
Ryan,Buy the piece not the story.Does buying a item from Dachau add value to it ?.If it does I find it macabre. If the story is not documented it is just a story and it does not matter who tells it.

Are you confusing the concentration camp w/the clothing factory/warehouse @ Dachau?

If so, people are not buying 'the macabre story' of it being a concentration camp...only that it came from Dachau. As collectors we separate the two (or try).

Hi Zorro I think that Fran has already answered but the association with Dachau cloth has to do with a particular type and style of insignia that was associated with production at Dachau SS clothing stores. Many of these items are peculiar to this area of production. I do not know that fez and black caps were produced anywhere else en mass. Certainly the black cloth cap with the exposed cardboard bill is peculiar to Dachau. You are associatig the creepiness with the concentration camp. The Dachau "story" does not enhance or sell the cap it explains it. These insignia/items were traditionally made of cheaper materials and quality and appear as possible fakes when compared against early war production.This is why these insignia are so suspect and easier to pass as original when reproduced. Late war production and not always up to traditional German standards of manufactured quality.Tough to explain being part of a forum that you often find so repugnant. I detest and despise bigots, racists, neo-nazis and skinheads. I have never visited any of their websites for this reason and nor do I have membership .cheers, Ryan S

For those interested, the following is a thread that discusses a late war NSDP tunic picked up in Dachau and shows the "capture" papers which came with it.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/859099914/...?r=64010548#64010548

In a related thread there is a comparison of "true" and "fake" Dachau tabs. It also offers an aerial view of the Dachau complex. There is at least one more archived thread that shows detailed photos of the Dachau complex, particularly the concentration camp, but as it doesn't really relate to the present discussion I've left it out.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7480909271...=754104392#754104392

I have seen some of the Dachau collar tabs around at some of the shows. Do these recent finds mean they are common? Assuming they are genuine, does anyone have a feel for what the collar tabs, cuff titles, and SS EM black panzer caps should be selling for/

Hi Brian comparatively speaking Dachau manufactured items are quite plentiful. Fez and black caps with cardboard uncovered bills were abundant right up until the mid 1990s at most major shows. Bags of insignia were liberated and I am certain that there are dealers/collectors out there that still have stacks of 50 or more tied with string. They are not rare but like everything else SS there is always a demand and a market for them. Many have hoarded them and the once plentiful supply is quickly drying up with every passing year. The last time I seriously thought of purchasing a black cap they were $1500.00 and that was recently. I have seen the odd one on dealer sites priced at $2500.00 or more. Most seem to be small sizes that should sell for less. Can't help you with tab prices. cheers, Ryan

There are two issues related to the advice to “buy the item, not the story.” One issue is regarding authenticity and the other is regarding value.

The most important issue, as far as I am concerned, is the issue of authenticity. More so for less experienced collectors, this bit of advice is VERY important. Often, novice collectors do not have the skills to determine real from fake and are prone to making such judgments based on the story which accompanies the item. That being said, even more experienced collectors have been inclined to overlook flaws in questionable items because of a convincing story about the item’s history. Accordingly, it is very sound advice, in my opinion, to make a judgment regarding authenticity solely based on the item itself, regardless of what may be said about where it came from.

The secondary issue, which has been touched upon in this thread, is that of value. In this case, the story may be of importance. Certainly, a piece which could be accurately traced to a particular place and time in history or to a known historical figure would be of greater value to a collector. Such provenance must, of course, be proven.

The need to know (and trust) the person from whom you are buying comes into play in both issues. Of course, we have all seen the unscrupulous dealer trying to sell some obvious fake to a naïve buyer with a BS story about it having come directly from a vet who “took it off the ‘kraut’ he had killed.” However, honest dealers are, themselves, sometimes fooled into believing false stories told them by the people who sell to them. There are plenty of vets (some real, some not) who try to augment their income by selling repros as their prized war trophies. Whether real or repro, vets, like other sellers, are also known to try to boost an item’s price in the same way crooked dealers do by fabricating romantic stories about the history of an item or how it was acquired. Good, honest dealers may be fooled and inadvertently pass these same mistruths on when they resell an item.

Therefore, I believe “buy the item, not the story” to be very sound advice to anyone. In the case of authenticity, relying on the story in any degree to determine real from fake is a mistake; know what you are buying and judge an item’s authenticity solely based on what is in front of you. As for value, provenance is added value. However, it must be fully substantiated and carefully documented. Otherwise, it is just a good story.

Brad

My husband has a very interesting piece of headgear from Dachau that he would like to share with everyone. He is going to start a new thread about it as soon as he wraps up work for today.

Stay tuned....