UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum SS Membership Pin Large

I have seen a number of obviously fake large SS membership pins over the years. These are the type with black enamel fronts and white SS runes in the middle, about the size of a quarter. Some are "RZM" marked with a number, while others are marked with "Ges. Gesch." Usually, the attaching pin can be seen from the front, extending from one side, but a few have pins that cannot be seen from the front. The attaching devices are most often the type seen on tinnies. Was there an authentic version of this pin, or is it pure fantasy? Thanks for any info.

The real ones were NEVER RZM marked.

These large, party-type SS badges never existed.

The "Zivilabzeichen" was only in stickpin, about half the size and was black enamel on silver (no white). It was maker marked either "Hoffstatter" or "Gahr" with serial number and sometimes silver content, never RZM'ed.

Hi Grumpy

Stephen is spot on with his comments on the SS-Zivilabzeichen.

The Hoffstatter pin is the one that I encounter most often. The number on the back is the badge issue number and I have seen the numbers go as high as around 187000.

Here is a front and back image of one from my collection which will hopefully help you.

Cheers

Raymond

Thanks to all. I own a small "stickpin" as depicted. I occasionally see the larger ones advertised as "guaranteed authentic." Some guarantee! I was not familiar with the larger ones and was curious.

Raymond,I have one but its a little different than yours,ser.no. is stamped into the back, yours looks like part of the mold.This one does not have ges gesch either.Ever seen one like this?

back

I was just reading through the old threads about ss stickpins,this pin of mine sure is not like the majority of the others.Seems a touchy subject anyway guess I'll never know if it good or bad.I know this youth pin is not a fake and it is made of the same type material and marked with the raised maker mark,but not an ss pin either.

Hi Eric

I have seen maybe 3 or 4 pins like yours with the raised MM and all fall in the 10000-20000 number range.

I have seen pins that are sub-10000 that have the MM stamped like the one I have shown and ones above 20000 that are finished in the same way.

That would lead me to believe that yours is a reproduction, but I do not have the proof to say with a great degree of certainty.

Not much of an answer, but maybe a forum member has a pin in the 10k-20k number range in their collection to share with us.

All the best

Raymond

Mine is like RaymondG's and is in the 189000 range. No proof one way or another as to Eric's variety.

Thanks for your opinion Raymond.

Thanks Grumpy,This one really is of good quality to be a repo but I sure have no proof its original , one thing I do know it aint one of those cheap 5.00 repos I have seen at gunshows!!!

Eric, I tend to be accepting of things until there is proof-positive they are fake. I think unrecognized, legitimate variations exist for many TR collectibles. Just because they do not conform to the majority seen, I do not necessarily brand them as fake. However, the "conventional wisdom" rules in most areas of collectibles. Unless you can demonstrate decisively you have an accepted variation, you will have a tough time convincing others, especially when it comes time to sell. I don't know if your pin is "legit," but think there's a chance it could be. That the serial number is stamped, not raised, is a positive sign. Just hang onto it and maybe someday it will be recognized as a "rare variation."

Hello grumpy,I was looking at a militaria collection and saw a ss pin like mine with a 4 diget ser.no.(5086)stamped exactly the way mine is.The collector has had it over 20 years and says there is no doubt in his mind its original.

This style of Hoffstatter pin with the raised maker mark is very early, and all the ones i have seen are in the 5 digit range..here is a picture of one of mine...the style of digits are bang on for this maker in this period, attachment is what i would like to see..interesting to hear of one in the 4 digit range..i have never seen one of this type in the 6 digit range..at what point did they change over?


www.kurskmilitaria.com

In regards to my last post, i was doing some thinking..it may be beneficial to read this thread as well..
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7480909271...=498108921#498108921

It seems that there are some five digit numbers with the later ( lets call it 2nd pattern or type..) Hoffstatter stamped logo with Ges Gesch..)

I am forming two chains of thought on these pins, and the more i look at them, the more a few things seem to stand out...

My first thoughts were that the Hoff. raised logo pins were the earliest of the two, and most often seen with 5 digit numbers on the back, and a plethora of different ring widths, but always black enamel over silver plate, with small,offset and wide spaced runes..

I noticed that in the examples given in the threads,there are some pins of the type we will refer to for reference as "type 2" with an earlier 5 digit number.This is strange unless you believe that the two types ran concurrently.I don't think they did.

Here is where it gets interesting.I believe that if we could find it, there is a type one pin with a high 5 digit number that is the end of type 1 , with the start of type two, with 6 digit numbers following.Here is where i have 2 questions...of the two makers Hoffstatter Bonn and Gahr, were they each assigned a block of numbers to fulfill? If so, could one or the other manufacturer fill gaps in the others block if a need arose?

I have a feeling that the type two Hoffstatter pins with 5 digit numbers are either a)replacement pins with original numbers stamped on OR they are filling blocks of numbers given to Gahr, that they could not fill for whatever reason (and Hoff. could, as they were the bigger concern, and the premiere supplier..)

This leads to the next train of thought...i believe that the change from the Hoff. type 1 to the type 2 was necessary in order to standardize
the size of the rings, size of the runes, as well as their placement on the obverse..you will notice that the type 2 has fatter , squatter runes, and that they are placed much closer together and are not as dramatically offset as the first type.This change constituted the basis of the more traditional "look" of the runes, with which we are more familiar...

I believe it was this change that necessitated the addition of the Ges Gesch on the back of the pin, protecting what was theirs so to speak, a refinement of the breed..

I would like to see a range of Gahr pins and numbers as well as their fonts to see if they followed suit in the standardization..

I invite any opinion in this interesting thread..

What you said makes sense to me,wouldnt be the first thing changed from early to late war in ww2 Germany.

Just for your information, I do have an unquestionable "Type 2" HOFFST�TTER BONN GES.GESCH. with 17XXX (five digit) number.
Regards

Hi Folks:

I am a newbie to posting here, but I think that I might finally be able to add something to this discussion. I have been interested in these FM pins since they are serialized. Names of all contributors to the FM were recorded by that organization along with personal data a record of their monthly contributions, and each was assigned a unique membership number. I believe a significant number of the the owners of these pins could be identified from the captured TR records in the Berlin Document Center in the National Archives with a lot of effort (anyone looking for a project?). Attached is a partial document dated 1938 from a 2/3 SS-pioneersturmbann concerning what I believe to be receipt of their pins and who was to receive which serial numbered pin. I don't have any copies of pages from the FM ledgers readily available, but these are comprised of forms that are filled out by hand.

Cheers,
Ross J. Kelbaugh

Here is the rest of the list in case you might have one of these numbered pins.

Ross Kelbaugh

SS-Researcher, I think you have mixed up the "SSZivilabzeichen" (civil membership pin) and the "F�rderndes Mitglied" (paying symphatisant)pin.
In this thread there are shown and mentioned civil membership pins, your (very interesting!!) lists do show pin numbers for F�rdernde Mitglieder (paying sympathisants). Both are quite different. The circle of persons as also the badges.
The civil membership pin number is written in each personal file of an SSmember (when he got one). I do not know if there are any number lists which can lead to the owner. Would be a great find if tehre is such a list.
Regards,

Thanks wotan for the corrective. In my excitement to finally contribute I overlooked the obvious. Attached is a SS personnel filecard showing the SS-Zivilabzeichen Nr. for the benefit of anyone who might not have seen one. I am not sure as of yet if there are any lists available for these numbers in the captured TR records as there are for the F.M., but many could be harvested from these filecards for anyone looking for a project. My primary interest has been focused on collecting SS-Nummers not in the Dienstalterlistes.

Regards,
Ross Kelbaugh

I am quite sure that collectors of small pins who do own a FM pin are eager to know whom this pin did belong They are at least scarce in collections. So I still think it is a valuable find for them you made.
Regards,

Eric,Doug,Grumpy-
I found your post on this thread informative,interesting,and worth considering.
Being that this topic is almost 1 1/2 years old now, I was wondering if there was any new information or thoughts regarding the early "type 1" ss civilian pin that Eric and Doug shows photos of and discuss.
Thanks

Guys:

I was recently discussing my search for SSZA # 1625, attributed to a research full Rohm and numbered SS that I own.

From the discussion, I took away the idea that low numbered SSZAs were produced by Gahr in silver and that higher numbers were produced by Hoffstatter. I believe that the number 1625 that I am looking for would be found in Gahr silver, if found at all.

BTW, as a place holder I have a Hoffstatter nr 182026.

The question is whether this low number theory is correct and, if so, where did the Hoffstatter numbers start? The idea of various types of Hofstatters makes sense if they took over production from a start up (type 1) to a continuous production mode (type 2).

John

Hi

I do not think all early numbered SS pins were produced by Gahr.

The example I cite is Von Eberstein's SS pin which is numbered 223 and was produced by Hoffst�tter, not Gahr. It is shown in 'The Leadership Corps' by Max Williams.

It may be that there is a higher likelihood that very early numbered pins were produced by Gahr, but it is by no means a certainty as Von Eberstein's pin proves.

I have pin number 4010 and that is produced by Hoffst�tter and I have seen one in the 30,000 range that are made by Gahr.

They were a paid for item and the silver pin was more than the standard pin. I am sure that some were presented to early members, but I think there were no hard and fast rules.

Raymond