UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum 1936 SS-chained Eicke Pagan-runic inscribed dagger

Guten-Tag!
I am wondering if anyone may wager a guess for the current market-value of the Model 1936 chained Eicke Pagan-runic inscribed dagger featured in Tom W.'s book, which was the very same one featured in the first R.L. Enterprise publication back in 1958???

What makes you think this dagger is original ?

Jim,
I purchased the piece from Tom W. perhaps 15+ years ago. In his latest book he credits the piece as being completely original and having the runic-dedication translated by the currator of the military museum at FT. Bragg, where it may have at one time resided or have been displayed. The 1958 R.L Enterprise book proves it to go back at least that far. It would also be safe to say it is most definately a Boker made dagger with a factory applied etch.

I am not commenting on this particular piece, but there are several daggers in the R & L Book that are not correct.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Hello Again,
If anyone wishes to engage me, I certainly respect their knowledge and expertise in this field. If the R.L. Enterprise Reference is not credible, is it because of the author's reputation, the featured pieces not being represented correctly, or them being out-right fakes? Was there really an established parameter for our hobby at that time? I personally do not see the logic of someone embellishing a garden-variety M1936 chained SS dagger with a modest-yet very bizzare reverse-etch attributed to Eicke, when to the best of my knowledge the hobby was still in it's infancy, and the daggers themselves were relatively acessible. Also, I don't really believe Eicke played a big role in the occult picture of the Pagan-SS Warrior ideology with which we associate Himmler. Why attribute a fake inscripion to Eicke, and not Himmler himself? Who, back then would really go goo-goo over it?
Origial-authentic-period, or post-war embellished piece-regardless, still purchased from Tom W.-who offered me his lifetime buyback, featured it in his book-our sanctum-sanctorium. Any true-believers care to comment?

Please post some photos...

I second that . . . please post any photos you have as, unfortunately, we don't often have the opportunity to view rare blades any more! ~ Ian

The item in question is listed on page 48 of Raidl's book. Shown with no scabbard.And to note a very worn grip!
Ron,please let everyone know which pieces shown in Raidl's book are not correct.I always had doubts about the presentd piece RedX officer (or as the money grubbers call them social welfare)from hitler and the nskk high leader presented piece but then since all photos are in black and white its just a very early reference anyway. And I dont think the authors rep is in question. back then folks just collected. The last time I tried to speak with Raidl he refused.That was in 2001, not interested anymore.I deeply respect the man!
Bret Van Sant

Thanx for feedback, I will post photos as soon as possible.

Raidl's book is a complete mess. I was looking at it tonight.

The emblished scabbard political pieces are examples of what is wrong with the R & L booklet. The NSKK eagle engraved into the scabbard of what appears to be a decent NPEA Leader's Dagger less chain is one good example of what is not right with the booklet.
Scabbard emblishments were prohibited by regulation-you could have added to the blade as long as it was not on the exterior, so when you see things like this on early pieces, one has to question the origin.
Also, there are other pieces that I would question-some of the police bayonets for example.
Many of these pieces originated in a period when nothing was known and some heavy money was being spent for the time on these things at gun shows.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Sure would like to see some good photos of that Eicke SS dagger.

-serge-

I agree with Serge.I would love to see it to.

quote:

Raidl's book is a complete mess.

You can't forget that at the time it was pretty much 'the only game in town'. This was pre Atwood, Tom Johnson and Tom Wittmann. It was great - FOR THE TIME...........

Hi Guys, The book you are discussing is pretty hard to find and LONG out of print. I thought these might help out those who do not have it. Here is the book and the daggers being discussed!










MORE NEXT REPLY!

More..












Regards RG88

quote:

Originally posted by cog-hammer:
The item in question is listed on page 48 of Raidl's book. Shown with no scabbard.And to note a very worn grip!
Ron,please let everyone know which pieces shown in Raidl's book are not correct.I always had doubts about the presentd piece RedX officer (or as the money grubbers call them social welfare)from hitler and the nskk high leader presented piece but then since all photos are in black and white its just a very early reference anyway. And I dont think the authors rep is in question. back then folks just collected. The last time I tried to speak with Raidl he refused.That was in 2001, not interested anymore.I deeply respect the man!
Bret Van Sant

Cog Hammer, The Red Cross leaders dagger IMO is OK, I have never had the chance to "hands on" it, But is does follow the regulations regarding embelleshments. "(or as the money grubbers call them social welfare)" What did you mean by that? There is a Very Definate difference between the RK Leader and SW Leader. Your statement seems to indicate that there is a difference only to those trying to up the profit a little, Yes? Regards, RG88

Oh, The dagger shown IS a Social Welfare Dagger!

Re: Raidl & Leslie

I concur 100% w/Texasuberalles!

This book, by itself, got me and alot of "newbies" in the 60's excited about this hobby.

Mistakes? Sure. But, it was a ground breaker... and affordable... with relatively good photos and an honest attempt at accurate attribution based on information available at the time.

And, besides, how many reference books can you name that don't have at least some erroneous information?

And, even the spurious entries in R&L, by having been published, stirred discussions in the fledgling collector community in the 60's that enabled a number of us to avoid expensive mistakes... like the embellished political daggers shown above.

Some other, later "coffee table books" are now correctly recognized as over-priced "sales catalogs" intended to legitimize some deceptive author-dealer's repro and fantasy inventory (ala Atwood).

I believe Raidl & Leslie was a sincere attempt at a first, real reference book.

BTW, copies of this book (remainder inventory) are still being sold by Dick Raidl at some local gun shows here in Northeast Ohio.

The book is quite easy to find if its something you wish to have in your reference section. I would think that any serious collector should have it. but then I'm kind of a goof as I have even saved an email Jon Schallcross sent me 10 years ago on Wittmanns comments on the Bowman book. Because its in print doesnt make it fact but the gems can be gleaned from any reference book.Did I say "money grubbers"? yip I did
Bret Van Sant

Hi Bret, "I would think that any serious collector should have it." I absolutely agree! But, how many times have you watched a new collector, or even an old hand, walk up at a show and purchase a wrong dagger and at the same time pass up a good deal on the same table on a book that will tell them exactly what is wrong with the dagger and why they should not buy it! Also, on the Social Welfare Dagger, I was just curious as to why you said the "Grubbers" would call it that, as if it was just another name to call a Red Cross Officers dagger to make it more "Exotic" and worth more money. Am I mistaken as to your feelings on that? RG88

The �Huhnlein presentation� dagger pictured in the R & L book recently surfaced on the NSKK High Leader thread. And I have a fairly recent memory of a runic inscribed Japanese Samurai sword that I may still have an image or two saved for reference.

As was stated - just because it�s in a book. And even if a piece, has supporters who claim that something is original, that does not necessarily make it so. FP

NSKK High Leader Thread

foxart, Is Raidl still going to those shows? or with us still? I wanted to phone him in 2001 but he refused which was cool. I always had many questions to ask him. not the good vs. bad but more on collecting in general back in the day. He sent me a signed copy of his book 1st edition. for the inflated cost of 3.00$. figured that made him a real collector. A lesson a few should learn.
railgun88,no war of words here.
Fred, do you remember Wittmann selling a runic inscribed japanese small dagger or sheathed knife about 5 0r 6 years ago? I think it was in an old offering but i'll dig around for it. hell, i may be way off base here. If memory serves, it was a bone gripped job sort of a one off thing. TW seemed to believe it from some axis contact via sub. sounds very outer limits type of scripted but it was less than 500$. I'll try to find it. thanks for the link it should be good reading unless it takes a dive on the last few pages
Bret Van Sant

NOTE THAT ALL OF THE EMBELLISHED DAGGERS IN THE R & L BOOK BELONGED TO A COLLECTOR NAMED DUTCH HEILMAN. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT ALL OF THESE DAGGERS WERE MADE BY AN EAST COAST JEWELER WHO WAS A MASTER ENGRAVER. I HAVE ALSO SEEN A LATE WAR JAPANESE NAVY STAINLESS STEEL SAMURAI SWORD FROM DUTCH'S COLLECTION UPON WHICH WAS ENGRAVED A RUNIC INSCRIPTION. THE PIECE, AS WERE ALL OF THE OTHERS, WERE TOTALLY BOGUS. BACK IN THE 50'S, THIS DAGGER BOOK INDICATES THE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE THAT WAS OUT THERE. IT WAS A START-BUTHAD MANY ERRORS. NOTE THAT THE POSTSCHUTZ DAGGER IS IDENTIFIED AS BEING FOR SIGNAL CORP.
BOB

Bob,
So is it correct that Dutch thought they were real and someone make up the "fakes" to stick on him? And would that also include the "Eicke" runic SS dagger?

-serge-

Bret,

Offhand I don�t remember Tom Wittman selling a small Japanese dagger or knife of any kind with Runes. The item I was making reference to was a Runic inscribed Tsuba on (what I recall as being) a machine made Naval sword with the du rigor �U-Boat story�. I don�t know if it is the same sword that Bob Coleman is referring to or not.

The NSKK High Leader saga is I think informative although overly long. Since then I�ve acquired a little more data, but nothing really significant as it is more corroborative. On another entirely non-related thread when I followed the link back to an earlier source I found that the thread had disappeared into �cyberspace�. With the thread being locked down I hope that this does not happen at some point with the NSKK thread.

Regards, FP

Hey Guys, No Problem and you're Welcome! I had the book handy and figured some of the newer members may not have had it. so I went ahead and posted the Pics. You're welcome again!

quote:

Originally posted by Serge (aka Wagner):
Bob,
So is it correct that Dutch thought they were real and someone make up the "fakes" to stick on him? And would that also include the "Eicke" runic SS dagger?

-serge-

I CANNOT COMMENT ON THE RUNE EICKE DAGGER AS IT IS OUTSIDE MY FIELD OF EXPERTISE. HOWEVER, IN THE DAYS WHEN FAKES WERE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN(AND PRETTY POOR QUALITY), THE ENGRAVED SCABBARD HEILMAN DAGGERS ARE FAMOUS. THE JAPANESE SWORD I WAS REFERRING TO WAS A LONG STAINLESS STEEL KATANA. THE HANDLE ORNAMENTS(MENUKI) WERE SWASTIKAS, A COMMON FAMILY CREST USED IN FEUDAL JAPAN. THE SWORD WAS LEGITIMATE UNTIL THE RUNIC SYMBOLS WERE ADDED. OF COURSE, THESE WERE USED TO HELP VALIDATE THE SWORD. I HAD A CHANCE TO HANDLE IT MANY YEARS AGO AT THE SOS. NOTING THE SIMILARITY IN THE WORK, I ASKED THE OWNER IF THIS HAD BELONGED TO DUTCH HEILMAN. THE ANSWER WAS YES

Thank-you everyone for your input!!! If anyone has anything else to contribute-such as a handle on the alleged "master-engraver"; that would be interesting, wouldn't it? However, my question to ask would be- if not legitimate, why not MORE gaudy or garish, and why attribute it to Eicke? Also, this creative individual certainly had to be familliar with runes a bit beyond those which were generally encountered, let alone understood by anyone other than one indoctrinated in such. I shall post some photos as soon as possible.

POSSIBLY SOME OF THE OLD TIME EAST COAST COLLECTORS MIGHT KNOW MORE ABOUT THE HISTORY OF HEILMAN'S DAGGERS. I WAS LED TO BELIEVE THAT THE MAN DOING THE WORK WAS COMISSIONED TO DO SO AND NOT THE SELLER OF THE ITEMS. THIS TOOK PLACE IN THE MID 50'S AND AFTER HALF A CENTURY, THE TRAIL MAY BE QUITE COLD. UNTIL ATWOOD'S DAGGER BOOK IN THE MID 60'S, THE R & L BOOK WAS THE BIBLE FOR DAGGER COLLECTORS.

quote:

and why attribute it to Eicke?

Why not? An infamous person who sure can't disagree from the grave.

Cog hammer- Yes, Raidl is still setting up a table at some shows ( at least as of last January ). I don't think he likes to talk too much about the early days because 1) he's basically out of the dagger hobby, having had to liquidate his entire dagger collection years ago (divorce), and 2) some people seem to want to hold him almost criminally responsible for his attempt to publish a book without the benefit of the accummulated knowledge that we enjoy now 40+ years later .

BTW, here is a picture from an old (50s-60s?) True magazine, part of a 2 page article featuring "Dutch" Heilman's collection. The embellished political daggers being discussed in this thread are shown around the top of the central circle of daggers.

Keep this photo in mind the next time someone offers you an opportunity on something "that's just resurfaced out of an old, well-known collection" .

The picture

quote:

Originally posted by foxart:
Cog hammer- Yes, Raidl is still setting up a table at some shows ( at least as of last January ). I don't think he likes to talk too much about the early days because 1) he's basically out of the dagger hobby, having had to liquidate his entire dagger collection years ago (divorce), and 2) some people seem to want to hold him almost criminally responsible for his attempt to publish a book without the benefit of the accummulated knowledge that we enjoy now 40+ years later .

ROGER-
I APPRECIATED THE R & L BOOK FOR IT'S EARLY ATTEMPT TO SPREAD SOME KNOWLEDGE TO EARLY COLLECTORS. TAKEN THE TIMES IN WHICH IT WAS PUBLISHED, BARELY 10 YEARS AFTER THE WAR, IT IS AMAZING THAT MORE INACCURICIES DID NOT OCCUR. IF YOU EVER SEE MR. RAIDL, PLEASE THANK HIM FROM ONE OF THE EARLY GUYS FOR THE SERVICE HE PREFORMED. I KNOW HE DID NOT GET RICH SELLING THE BOOK.
AFTER ALL OF THESE YEARS, I KNOW WHAT DUTCH HEILMAN LOOKED LIKE. THANKS FOR POSTING THE INTERESTING PICTURE.
BOB

Foxart, very cool photo!
I was a bit bummed when Raidl didnt want to speak with me. but thats been quite a while and I did come to the end where I understood how he felt. I was just happy thinking he thought enough of me asking to just about "give" me the book. I never wanted to put him on the hot seat just get a good feel for what the beginings were like. When the book arrived and I found he left the hobby that spoke volumes to me. I wish him well!
Bret Van Sant

I believe Dutch was duped into buying these daggers and was not aware they were fakes made from original daggers. I think it is known where these fakes came from by some. I think the writers of the red book know-for sure.

This is were a "textbook" is not always factual. Love to see nice repos!

Achtung!!! I now present to you blade photos of what I truly beleive to be an incredible, and unique genuine period etch. I won't bore you with photos of the scabbard, as that, as well as the dagger's period authenticity is not in question. It is however, as I understand the association with Mr. Heilman's alleged embellished pieces which have cast sardonic retort. My original question was not related to the authenticity of the piece, but to it's current market-value for say insurance purposes. T.W. had offered to purchase it back a while ago for considerably more than the original price. I doubt it was to protect his reputation from association with Mr. Heilman.
Respectfully-Eicke

Photos of etch