UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum My Allg.SS

Though having changed from SA-items to daggers I still have one SS set. 100% original. Bought long ago from Bob Hirtsz
What would a set like this do nowadays ?

If all original, good condition, then an EM hat would go around $4500 or more.

I just bought an original stripped EM tunic for almost $5000 without insignia. The insignia: swastika armband $450+, sleeve armband $650+ (a simple one with a number), collar tabs $700+. Belt and buckel depending type and markinsg. An early buckle can go for $600. For the tie with tag $250. A tunic with originally sewn insignia will command much higher prices of course, also when is has rare insignia.

JS

Shadowman,I just sent you a e-mail.

Well, that's nice. The armband has a number on it, being 6 with green borders. If IO'm not mistaken is the right combination with the 33 on the colar patch. Can anyone verify that. If I remember well the insignia was original to the tunic. The combination of '6' and '33' should tell.
The tie is labeled, the shirt is original etc.etc.

A very nice Darmstadter tunic set you have.

Very nice SSVT ensemble. Is there an SSVA stamp inside? What year would you estimate the tunic, with green 6 �rmelstreifen?
33rd Fuss-standarte
based in Darmstadt
6th strurmbann

Thanks Johann, so the 33 is correct with th 6 on the cufftitle.I thought it would be since, as I recall, all insignia were original to the tunic. Where should the stamp be in the tunic. Let me know and I'll look for it. As you might know SA was my think so I don't know much about SS
Ragards
Hans Holland

Well, that's the combination, as set up on the tunic. If original to the tunic, the colored sturm title is an earlier one,(pre-1938), and very sought after. I don't know if the tabs and board, are updated or early. I think that usually the cuff title was updated with insignia. Members such as Donald or Hooper are knowlegable as far as the nuances of the insignia dates. A VA/SS stamp will often have a date, which would date the tunic itself, but it seems to be a 50/50 crapshoot, weather it has one or not. the stamp would be somewhere on the black liner, in white ink. Here is an example of an early one, as yours might have.

Found it. It's SS labeled SS Rock, Hersteller 620 and has a stamp (white) in it "VA 1939"It also have a few other (size?) stamps but these are hard to read

the tunic don't has to be VA stamped inside, maybe there is a RZM Rock tag inside or maybe nothing at all.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/748090.../882102492#882102492

Just changed my username back to what it used to be
Now, all stamps and labels are present so what's the 'final' verdict

Maybe I am wrong what could be because we all humans. But I don't get the Green edges with the number 6. For my understanding green border numbers are from 1-4. I would be open for any corrections.

I would like to hear what Kevin or Donald think, as they've handled A LOT more of these than me. I cannot explain an early cuff title on a 1939 tunic. But anything is possible.

Dear Shadowman,
The cufftitle has, in my opinion, probably been added later. An Allgemeine-SS cufftitle for the 6th sturm should have blue borders. Green borders with a 6 were issued but only up to 1934. The chances of a tunic issued by the VA in 1939 bearing a 1933/34 cuffband are slim indeed. Especially as the coloured bands were abolished the year prior.
Derek

Now that's what I call info. So the cuff has been added later. Now, since Bob is/was (does anybody know where he's gone) one of the BEST SS dealers we have/had I believe the combination to be original. But, if not, what would it do for it's value ?

As how it's explained if it is original to it ? I've collected SA for many years and learned that the averidge party member didn't care much about the RZM but correct me if I'm wrong.

http://www.bobhritz.com/
Bob has relocated to Tombstone Arizona and hasn't posted here for quite some time. Here's a link to his website.
Jim

Yes, I know the site. Any adress known ? I will visit Tombstone this July when I take the wife and two sons on a four week trip to the US

A 1939 schwarzer Rock would or should have the alu bordered Sturmband. These cuff titles are now thick on the ground with all the sites, in fact. It is an easy task to replace said band, especially if this band is from an earlier era. The bands with the colored borders are very rare. Maederer has a Regensburg tunic for about USD 9,ooo, if that is any guide. This piece is the later variety with the RZM tag, marked buttons, VA stamp pi pa po. Viel Sammlerglueck. Darmstadt is well within the US occupation and stationed forces cosmos. Most black uniforms I have seen have come from where US forces were stationed in the years from 1945 until the late 1990s.

Hi Don, let me see if I understand correct (after all I'm Dutch...)
1. The tunic should have another cuffband but the one it needs is easy to get.
What would be the value of the tunic as is right now ?

2. The cuffband is very rare but should not be on the tunic. What would be the value of the cuffband ?

I think that you're correct, Hans. This is later tunic, with an incorrect earlier sturmband. Values of these things is hard for me, in this ever changing marketplace. As far as the sturmband goes, some good pictures would help...


BTW, nice to see you stopping by...

Thanks Johann, yeah 't been too long and this is just a quick stop. I'm off now to one of the largest militaria-fairs in Europe now ( Belgium) but will post a lot of detailpictures tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by HansHolland:
Hi Don, let me see if I understand correct (after all I'm Dutch...)
1. The tunic should have another cuffband but the one it needs is easy to get.
What would be the value of the tunic as is right now ?

2. The cuffband is very rare but should not be on the tunic. What would be the value of the cuffband ?

Hritz is an excellent source. It is possible that the Sturmband with the colored borders is organic to the piece, but the doubts of colleague Chapman are correct in all probability. In any case, two issues apply to this tunic. Firstly, is it an ex-Soviet item, that is, with costume stamps? If so, then it is worth somewhat less than an untouched, organic piece; secondly, I do not find the colored Sturmband tragic, if the badge is real, which I am certain that it is---vacant the issue of the Sturm 6 and the green band, i.e. a piece from ca. 1933-1934. If the earlier band is authentic, then it is exceptionally rare. I cannot generalize about valuations. I know the Maederer piece is from an old collection, and is intact. I shall let others generalize as to what the range of value of these items is in today's super heated market. The correct Sturmbaender for this tunic are on all the leading US and German sites, having tumbled out of an excellent Southern California source known to me and dispersed via two leading US dealers to the wider firmament. Most regard these Sturmbaender with alu borders as only for leaders and incorrectly believe the numerals denote the Standarte, whereas they are for the Sturm---they are the pattern introduced in the course of 1937. Consult the postings of Derek Chapman on this and the WAF website. Von Lukacs also sold a Czech uniform (Prager Standarte) recently. If your piece has no costume marks, then it can easily command a higher value. Another issue is the Standarte #. The badges with the white or silvergraue Bestickung were also phased out by about 1938 or so (...I repeat phased out, which includes the possibility that they endured across this caesura...) A later tunic of say 1939 would likely have the alu badges throughout. An earlier tunic, say of 1934 or 1935 or so, could have the earlier pattern of enlisted badges. These tunics do exist and I consider them more desirable among Allgemeine SS material than the later types. But they are all rare and sought after, and please do not let my hair splitting impress you. And, I am totally unaware of what this material fetches in Europe, where it is much less seen on the market.

I should caution that incorrectly numbered cufftitles, i.e. wrong numbers with wrong colours, are doing the rounds.
Derek

Here's the pictures I promesed. Not much discussion about the russian markts in the inner sleeve . I did some digging myself too and dug up the old mailcorrespondence which was on a CD with files from my old PC.
. The jacket was, as said, bought from Mr Hritz with all the insignia. The insignia are original but NOT original to the tunic.
Now, what do we have here ? Should things be altered or best left alone?
If you want more pictures tell me thought I can't handle too much detail.

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Mr Holland,
You may know or not know that thousands of these Russian stamped Allgemeine jackets were found in a warehouse by an American dealer many years ago minus all their insignia!
I dont know what deal you had with the seller and you seem to have had this quite awhile maybe he could shed some light on this for you !,,,,,,,,,,,,,

On regard of your reaction at eastern I think it best not to respond to this.

This is a Lenfilm tunic that has been re-badged. There is no effort to deceive here. I have seen examples where the Soviet stamps are eradicated in various ways. This piece has been amended from 1939, but the tunic itself is real and these have appreciated in value quite a bit. I do not know what such a piece is worth, but it still has value, to be sure. The cuff title should be updated to the configuration of the Regensburg piece on the Maederer site. So long as one is honest about the thing, which the stamp demonstrates, then it is alright within its confines. I am sure some instances existed with these later tunics with the colored bands, given the requirement to Auftragen and the like. By 1939, though, the alu bands had replaced the colored bands on paper, but what such actually looked like in der Truppe? Wer kann ueberhaupt etwas dazu sagen...? Thanks for the images. The badges here on the piece are really more for an earlier era, say 1936 or so. There are others here who are total purists, and will be offended by this piece. I am not. There are also some for whom an organic, unmolested item is beyond their financial reach, and this piece has its role, to be sure. I think the ex-Czech and ex-Soviet pieces have a certain poetry to them, and one should be grateful that costume houses saved these things from destruction. Such pieces were not at hand when I began to collect in the 1960s, and the ex-Soviet provenance is intriguing for this son of the cold war. Postscriptum: I was under the impression that there were dozens of these, not thousands.

Thank you Donald, for your expertise on this piece. As stated earlier I dug up some old correspondence and indeed noticed the insignia were not original to the tunic. Should I replace the colored cuffband for an aluminium one. Since the cuffband was also bought from Bob Hritz I do not question it's originality. What would a fair exchange be, so my colored one for an aluminium one (and some money) and what does a cuffband like that looks like.
Where can I find items like that with prices etc.

Please read also the post from Peter under this link:

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/748090...183086627#4183086627

this is also one interesting link:

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/748090.../414101492#414101492

When you would change your title in a silver embroidered one I want to mention you also would have to change normal your numbered collar tab in a silver embroidered one. I wonder, I just know green bordered cuffbands with number 1-4. The silver embroidered numbered title are going over dealer tables with around $500 and colored ones start around $700, depense always about condition, length and how they are labeled.

Donald,you may be correct with the numbers of striped Allgemeine jackets.I was told that the pile was about 8feet high x 30 feet long from a well known Boston collector!

Interesting thread. Question does an Allgemeine tunic with replaced insignias command a much lower price than a supposedly untouched one?

quote:

Originally posted by JohnPic79:
Interesting thread. Question does an Allgemeine tunic with replaced insignias command a much lower price than a supposedly untouched one?

Surely an untouched piece is more valuable. However, such is a matter of taste, and you must ask the dealers, too, since they likely know the ups and downs of all this more than I do. They are the final arbiters of these things. The alu bordered Sturmbaender are somewhat easily had at the moment, in fact. Bruce Herman has them, as do Shea and others. These originated from here on the West Coast, actually, in the main, and have spread. I think even to Weitze, as well. Robert's analysis above is quite sound and on the mark. As I wrote above, the demand for black peaked caps is staggering and the price is likewise impressive.

For dear Steven Lee, the well known Boston collector described the pile as being somewhat less to me, though. However, who knows. The Lenfilm pieces are around, but they have really appreciated in value. I have seen the gentleman who secured the black SS fetid woolens at militaria meets hereabouts, but I have never asked him the full story. The pieces I have seen are perfect, save that they have been fiddled with somewhat. However, they have all the RZM/SS/VA marks that people seek. The purists would turn up their noses at such a thing, but so long as one knows what it is, such a piece has a useful place in a collection. Our Dutch friend's piece was restored in a fashion that might be described as slightly at variance with the regulations, but maybe not. Maybe they were worn with the old badges, too.

I mean "perfect" in the above, in that the uniforms are authentic. The Lenfilm or Mosfilm pieces were either stripped of badges or did not have them at all when the Russians bagged them somewhere...but where? I suppose I should ask the chap who got them out of Petersburg myself. Others deem "perfect" to be had from the veteran himself or from the GI's family, &c. in an untrammeled state. I have seen so much regalia in Germany from costume houses in stripped or altered condition that this black woolen via Russia does not offend me.

Im beginning myself to feel as though a restored piece done correctly can be as much of a valued piece as one that is not and has say no "provenence" beyond a history in dealer hands.Some of those pieces are touted as "untouched" but there is no way to really prove it unless as you say it was bought from the hand of the GI/German or his estate.