UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Helmet Forum Mint un issued M-40 helmet

Hi guys can anyone offer comment or opinion on the value of a truly mint and un issued M-40 single decal helmet in a large size 68? I do not see any available on any dealer sites so estimating a value is somewhat difficult. Thanks and cheers, Ryan

Mint M40 SD WH (decal,paint,liner,chinstrap) are about min. 1000/1200 USD (800/1000 euro)
My thoughts.

I think from a dealer you could expect slightly higher prices. But the word "mint" is over used and very few helmets have survived to this date in a true "mint" condition. The majority of helmets will have some shelf wear, making them "near mint" or slight wear making them "Excellent+". A real minty helmet shall have no shelf wear, scuff marks, or oxydation to the paint. Everything about it shall be undisputable 100%. In my opinion, a 100% true mint helmet could demand close to twice of a 90-95% helmet.

Erik

I totally agree with Erik. There is no such thing as a "mint" helmet. I've seen some pretty close helmets that were in the 95% range. But nothing ever close to mint. And it seems as if everybody has his/her opinion of what "mint" is. A 100% mint helmet..........it doesn't exist.

I guess that true "mint" is open to interpretation. Although I am in agreement with what it should mean there seems to be different levels of acceptability in the Third Reich hobby. Having purchased near mint from Wittmann and also tunics and medals and daggers described as mint I can comment that in all instances they contained some "flaws". I guess that the more appropriate description would be un issued-near mint with storage wear. This would be a great topic for a thread in terms of our impressions of the grading sysytem and their definitions. thanks and cheers, Ryan

Actually, a grading system was put forward by Ron Weinand and Terry Goodapple in their second volume of "German Helmets 1933 - 1945". It appears in words and pictures on pages 36 and 37 and discusses issues like mint with storage wear, etc. I have always been a proponent of this classification for helmets where "mint" is actually something different than for a mint coin or badge. Perhaps we as a community should revisit this and come to an agreement amongst ourselves. Hopefully the dealers will then follow suit and guys will know what is really meant by the terms "mint", "excellent", etc. Terms such as mega-mint are just so much hype to warrant an unjustified ballooning of a price (IMHO).

Cheers,

Hi Darryl I couldn't agree more. cheers, Ryan

Good idea Darryl.

Erik

ANother buzz word I've heard thrown around is "CHOICE"!

In my opinion, mint is mint, which is the way the item left the factory. I don't think this should be different for helmets than for coins. Storage wear makes the helmet no longer mint, but "near mint/unissued". In my book I grade them as follows (other may disagree):

Mint: Like factory new. No shelf wear, no signs of wear or any stains in liner. Leather soft but slight coloration due to ageing ok.

Near mint: As above, except minor shelf wear and oxydation accepted. Otherwise no signs of being worn.

Excellent+: Slight wear to helmet and liner. No corrosion. Paint and decal 95% or better. This helmet has most likely not been worn under real combat conditions.

Excellent: Like above but 90% or better to paint and decal.

Good: Most combat worn helmets fall in this category. 85 % or better on decal and paint. Slight corrosion accepted. "Normal" wear to liner, but no tears or major stains.

Fair: Well worn combat helmet that has "been there". 80% or better on paint and decal. Liner may have torn holes or small tears.

Of course you can have an excellent shell with a fair or poor liner, let us say due to dryrot. Dirt and grime does not affect rating. This is only the way I would rate helmets, and I realize others disagree. And many helmets bought as "mint" suddenly are not. But "mint" should be just that...."mint", which is the way coin collectors describes a coin in the same condition as when it left the factory. Even fingerprints on a coin reduces it from being mint. And yes, there are helmets like that out there, but they are far between.

Erik

Erik,

With your definition of "mint", I have never seen such a helmet. That is why I believe we as helmet collectors have to come up with out own definitions. I believe that even back in 1933 to 1945 factory issue helmets had flaws on them...either scratched paint or rubbed decals, etc. I like the idea that "mint" can include what we call "storage" or "shelf" wear but no damage per se.

I will scan and post the Weinand/Goodapple definitions from their book later today and see what you think.

Cheers,

smile...the SteinMeister not a helmet guy is...I keep saying that...please remember that the helmets were made for combat...if not combat...at least wear and tear...NOT made for collecting...the grading is actually much easier with beersteins...the only wear usually is on the names under the thumblift...but I agree with almost all that you guys said...it would be almost impossible to find a "mint" helmet...even if it was set on a shelve right after being painted. But what do I care?..smile...the SteinMeister not a helmet guy is...Roland.

That is why I think refering to "mint" helmets is all wrong. Like Darryl says, they are very very far between. I realize that we all want to have mint collectables, but I think refering to near mint helmets as mint just because we feel we need to have such helmets is all wrong. Let us call the showel "a showel" and refer to it for what it is.

May be we should refrain from using "numismatic" terms, and make a grading system that is more in line with what we collect. May be we should simply refer to a helmet as being "unissued condition" which will allow for shelfwear. But, a true mint helmet not showing shelf wear should still be allowed for a higher rating.....

Erik

Here is a scan of the Weinand/Goodapple helmet condition chart which is in the second volume of their "German Helmets 1933 - 1945" series. I hope Ron is OK with this being reproduced here. If not, he may certainly remove it if he sees fit to do so. I thought it would be a good idea for everyone to see it and make comment.

PS - please excuse the poor quality. That's what happens when it is reduced to below 75 kb.
Cheers,

I strongly disagree with calling a 95% helmet with slight wear to liner for mint (sorry Ron). I also question what is the difference between mint and mint unissued? Shouldn't mint and unissued be the same thing. I believe the above works well for a dealer who wants to sell lots of "minty helmets".

Wikipeida defines mint as follows:

"Mint condition is an expression used in the description of pre-owned goods. Originally, the phrase comes from the way collectors describe the condition of coins. As the name given to a coin factory is a 'mint', then mint condition is the condition a coin is in as it leaves the mint.

When describing trading cards, perfect condition is used to describe the condition as it is when pulled from a pack, mint would be new but opened.

Mint condition is often used on ebay sales to describe an item (modell figure, doll, collectable or similar) that has never been removed from box, or in some cases is as good as new without any scratches or other."

I see no reason why helmets should be defined otherwise.

Erik

Okay so I have my M-42 in hand. The liner is a nice lite uniform tan all the way around with no scuffing. The tie is in place and there is a very faint dome stamp but it is evident. The shell paint is 100% with no scratches or dings. There are three faint traces of white that appear almost to be chalk. Rivet paint is very nice with very little paint loss. Chinstrap is nicely dated and maker marked and is perfect with a nice full black color and no wear at all.Chinstrap rivits and buckle retain all of their gray finish. I will endeavour to post pictures over the weekend. Assuming that I have accurately described it could it fall into the near mint category? I have to admit that in 11 years of Max shows I do not recall encountering one this choice.I am hoping because of these attributes and size 58 that it is worth $700.00. Thanks and cheers, Ryan The forementioned grading system makes sense.

Well, it made sense to me but I guess we will never get a consensus on condition grading. No problem, I just thought that as a piece of equipment there is no way you will ever get a helmet that is truly "mint" as defined in encyclopaedias and dictionaries.

OK, it's back to "choice", "gem-like", "pristine", "mega-mint" and "ultra-mint"...

Cheers,

Now that I look at my helmet and look at the grading system perhaps mine is a little less conditioned than "near mint" It definately is a non issued piece though with hints of shelf wear and of people plopping it on their heads to try it "on for size" I will show it to you when next we meet Darryl. Cheers, Ryan

You can buy a toy mint in box that has never been played with but the package will have shelf wear or damage. This keeps the toy from being truly mint. Toy collectors then refer to the toy as MNRFP which means mint never removed from package. When you purchase a brand new car the car may exhibit some wear from delivery, preparation etc....this is why concours restored cars can be often over restored and better than when factory new. Points are actually deducted for this when judging. The sportscard hobby grading system is even more anal. cheers, Ryan

Having seen how helmets are packaged and shipped from factory to warehouse then to field soldier I have a hard time envisioning a mint helmet at all and would and have looked at these with a jaundiced eye . I can see very large shells or small shells having a long shelf life .I don't like the word mint minty used for field equipement at all. There where millions made and lots of survivors but they where practical items. IMO
by the by what size is yours Ryan ?

paul

Hi Paul M-42 is a size 58 and the M-40 is a 68. cheers, Ryan

One interesting tid bit is that I noticed in the article that Darryl posted the "Mint Unissued" helmet is named. Which would mean....

Stephan,

Yes, that was a poor choice to use as an example. I also noticed that it has a non-standard chinstrap on it...definitely not a factory piece.

Hi I guess that was as close to a mint example as they could find. What does that tell you about truly mint? cheers, Ryan

..and I thought "mint" had to do with the flavor of the helmet. Well so much for "apple green"...I suppose I should stop licking them...

One thing I never understood about the Weinand/Goodapple reference concerning mint/unissued, their example is named. If it was unissued, it would not be named.

Larry

Yes, that is what Stephan alluded to in his post above. It is a strange choice of photos to use as an example.

unissued with storage marks only.

Flippermon,

Welcome to the forum...nice helmet. That certainly classifies as a mint unissued example in my view. How is the party decal?

Cheers,

Thankyou

Yessir, very nice indeed.
Paul

Nice polizei helmet! I agree that it is as nice as they come. It also proves that a true mint helmet as per definition is extremely hard to find. I'll be a little more conservative than Darryl and classify it as "near mint" but add "wet dream" to it

Cheers

Erik

I agree...I made my "mint unissued" comment based on the first two images. I hadn't seen the party decal yet.

I still believe the helmet to be truly unissued based on the lack of wear to the inside liner system however, based on the wear to the party decal I would suggest that the helmet be classified as "mint" only. Just my opinion. You can see how difficult it is to judge condition...not everyone will agree.

Flippermon...thanks for giving us something to discuss. It's still a beautiful helmet.

Cheers,

would a mint unissued helemt have a chipstrap?

Marc

Actually a true mint helmet would not have a chinstrap. The chinstrap was added at depot level. When the helmets were stacked at the depot, they did not have chinstraps attached. The chinstrap was issued to the individual soldier separately along with the helmet.

Erik

quote:

Originally posted by erikofnorway:
Actually a true mint helmet would not have a chinstrap. The chinstrap was added at depot level. When the helmets were stacked at the depot, they did not have chinstraps attached. The chinstrap was issued to the individual soldier separately along with the helmet.

Erik

I agree (not to be a poo poo but from that liner picture I believe that strap is a reproduction).
Interesting thread guys.

Flippermon: Nice helmet. Like Darryl says............it's very difficult to judge condition. Everybody has his/her opinion. Here's my opinion. If we are using the book German Helmets volume two pages 36 and 37, I would rate the helmet at excellent. My reason, the party shield has a little wear on it, keeping it from being mint. Never the less.........a very nice/collectable helmet.

Jerry,

If you read the "mint" category in the Weinand/Goodapple example of helmet conditions you will see that it allows for decals to be 95 to 99% intact. Again, I guess it all comes down to a person's judgment as to what is a 95% (mint) and a 94% (excellent) decal. This is a very interesting and rather eye-opening thread.

Cheers,

Great helmet! I will add this I have owned truly mint Luftschutz and firepolice helmets. I actually purchased a truly mint firepolice helmet complete with neckflap from Ron W. a few years back. I think that near mint or truly mint examples of these particular helmets are more likely to exist than any other with the possible exception tropical sun helmets. I have owned some mint, unissued versions of those as well, although they may not qualify in this thread as they are not metal. cheers, Ryan

Yes Darryl, I agree that this is a very interesting thread. Personally, I don't put much weight on a dealers "rating" but make up my own mind. But from my point of view, mint is mint is mint and there is no deviation regardless of what Tom, Dick and Harry calls it. I don't think I will ever own a mint helmet according to my own standards, but I am quite happy to have a few Excellent and Excellent+ to show off. But then again, I am more interested in the history behind each individual helmet then to have spotless helmet missing its soul. In my mind we are collecting history, not steel.

But it would be interesting to have some dealers participate here and tell us how they rate their helmets? Ron, Bill, Tom, Bob, Ken, where are ya?

Erik