UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Medals & Badges of the Third Reich Forum Beyond Trashing the name of Rex Reddick

Perhaps RK is talking about the badge being discussed here:

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/800097573/m/5530014164/p/2

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by mvogel:
They already have the green light and no one is stopping for any red light if it ever gets switched on. And any voluntary compliance or 'just say no' polcy has a lousy track record. In order to achieve the objective there would have to be a plan and a policy in place that would eliminate both supply and demand, and you need everyone to agree to it. Fat chance for this to happen.

Gee, it's funny how this thread seemed to turn back to the original version. Manfred, I can't help but sense that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth about this subject. You trash my effort to elicit a campaign against repros in general and Reddick in particular, even accusing me of some secret plan or ulterior motive for my effort. Yet above you indicate the need for a policy and plan in place to eliminate the supply and demand with everyone needing to agree on a course of action. But you note such an event has little chance of success. What side of your mouth is the truth?

Ron, I have no idea about the specifics of the Chinese repros of US silver dollars:what mintage is copied and how are the copies made or marked. I know the Russians were copying US gold and it played heck with collectors. Of course it didn't affect the price. The knowledgable collectors could tell the differences in the coins. But those new collectors could get stuck in a hurry wtih trash from Russia. And that is the point I was making. Does the Nusimatic field see a multitude of repros like the militaria field? I don't think so. No Reddick didn't sell his trash as originals. But he didn't sell them as repros either. The descriptions were couched in safe terms that flew under the radar. So he was a wholesaler.

But let me ask you a question as a participant in MAX operations. How can the two Tom's speak in holier than thou terms about keeping repros out of the show or postively identified, and yet permit Reddick to have his table island of unidentified repros? I can't remember the Max seminar to which you refered in your post. But did anyone ask the Bosses what was their rationale for permitting Reddick to sell?

The seminar was in St. Louis. Wittmann was on the panel and became insensed at Reddick's blades (he brought examples with him) and threw them into the table and stuck them point first into it. Words were hot and heavy and Reddick was in the audience and claimed that they were never advertised as originals nor priced even close. The consensus was that they should be identified in some manner.
There are several dealers who sell reproductions of flags and items at the shows and they are never passed on as originals when identified as such at the show. What happens after the show is the problem and I agree that something needs to be done.
The Silver Dollars from China are written about in all the coin magazines currently and are even in worn very good to excellent condition: not uncirculated. The only way you can tell is by die characteristics. This is the reason so many collectors are demanding slabbed pieces today. Even the 1950D Jefferson Nickel has been restruck and passed as originals by the bag of 2000 and this is why the Jefferson Nickel has not increased in value over the past five years.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Jwotka: The truth is, and you should know that as much as I do, that there is no comprehensive plan that everyone would agree and adhere to. In your earlier posting you suggested that by banning Reddick from MAX and SOS would solve all your problems, a suggestion that I seriously question of being of any use at all. This is why I posed the question of why singling out Reddick when there are loads of other sources of replicas. As Houston Coates remarked, the best and most sophisticated quality replicas don't even come from Reddick but from other sources.
My main point is that I'm not a medal collector but I'm using quality replicas for display purposes. For that reason I don't like a plan to ban replicas. I don't understand why my point of view is so intolerable. There is a vast pool of militaria collectors out there with a variety of collecting goals who want to use replicas for their particular purpose. Lets concentrate on lowering the boom on those folks who want to pass off replicas as originals. Thats the best we can practically do. Any grandiose plans of a universal prohibition on the sale, manufacture, and distribution of replicas may express high ideals (to some) but are highly unrealistic and impractical, not to mention a bit highhanded.

Ron.Ah,the first Max at St.Louis. Carpeted hall floors.....easy on the feet. I missed the seminars that night because of family committments at home. I wish I had been there.And Reddick weaseled his way through the answers like through his ads. Neither here nor there.

So it sounds like the repros have played heck with some aspects of the numismatic field and they have not been able to control it. I remember when the Jeff Nickel bubble burst with the fakes coming online. I don't read of any legion of coin collectors writing how they love those fake 1909VDB pennies displays in their collection. After the shows is the problem, but so are the shows if the demonstrate tantamount approval to dealers like Reddick. And I suppose from you answer, no support can be expected from the management of the MAX?

Manfred, I never suggested focusing on Reddick would solve all the problems, so please don't write such rubbish. I pointed out Reddick as the most prominent example of your supplier of "quality replicas for display purposes" that bear no identifying mark and are not clearly advertised as reproductions but are couched in confusing advertising terms. But you seem to want to go after the street dealers and leave the suppliers alone. Because you and your "vast pool of militaria collectors" like replicas. I never found your views intolerable. Only curious as to why you were intolerant of any indication of replica on those medals you bought.

Your last statement says it all? A laissez-faire attitude towards the manufacturers of the garbage so long as you can satisfy your craving for perfect replicas. I might say that your attitude is a bit highhanded also towards those of us militaria collectors who have a genuine concern about the proliferation of these fakes.

quote:

Originally posted by Ronald Weinand:
PS: I at least brought this to the attention of the collectiing community in a seminar at the MAX Show and there were those dealers who made a scene at the show bashing them, but no credit was ever given that dealer for his stand as I remember! Where was the support then???

I'll respond to Ron's last paragraph of his posting and to JoeBo's referring link to another topic.

Ron: let me mirror your question ... Where was the support at the MAX back in 1997 when I introduced my book, bringing similar situations and, other garbage in the hobby to light??

I was the first to admit that my book was not intended as a literary work of art. Here's the review my book received in the Military Trader back then, to prove the point that, atleast I made the effort! You can enlarge it for easier reading.

JoeBo: I would certainly wish to hear you opinion on the topic that you posted the link to?

I understand your position Joe, but want to know who is going to be the policeman??? I cannot speak for the administration of MAX Promotions, as I am not on the board and only play my role as seminar coordinator. Their decisions are hard enough and I don't want to be any part of them.
At least I feel that they made some effort to accomplish something with the Board of Experts even though it is imperfect in some people's estimation.
Now we come to the era of political correctness and people's rights. The Max Show has already had some problems in this area with those who wanted tables and we banned, so I don't think we are going to solve these problems without causing damage to the whole collecting field.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

http://www.biddingtons.com/content/investingvetted.html
I have suggested the above more than once. Even perhaps setting the MAX up as vetted and unvetted areas. The prevention of the production and sale of repros is IMO an impossible task. However; There ought to be at least a few safe areas for collectors to buy so why not start with one of the two most prestigeous shows held in the United States?
Jim

Jwotka: I've just conducted a little experiment. I posted a picture of three DRK pinback medals two of which conform to the textbooks of Angolia and Foreman as original. Along comes another expert who tells me that they are all fake, claiming that the two authors are incorrect and that only he knows which are original. This is not the first time that I have experienced this with asking 'experts' on medals. And when it comes to medals I have absolutely no confidence in 'eperts' judgment, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
And this is why I wouldn't want to spend big bucks on an original because somewhere down the road is ALWAYS some apostle of the truth who says its a fake. Thus the only avenue for those who don't actually collect medals but use them for display purposes is to buy a high quality replica.
There is nothing worse for a collector than an authenticity hassle involving a number of disagreeing experts. Life is way too short for that. By buying a good quality replica I know what I have while paying a price that I can agree with.

Once again, it goes back to the old keyword "Knowledge"! Learn your subject matter and you won't have to rely on the "Experts". You will be able to buy with confidence, that you know the difference between genuine and reproduction. Unfortunately, it's the collector's lack of knowledge that feeds the "Experts".

Thats probably good advise for those who are interested in metals. And I agree that those folks should be aware of the pitfalls and know what they are doing. In that case we shouldn't be worried about replicas.

http://www.biddingtons.com/content/investingvetted.html
Here's at least an initial step in the right direction folks. Vet a major show. Or perhaps you'd rather just continue aimlesly arguing and wringing your hands here. If any of you don't like this alternative feel free to post one of your own. Frankly I probably should't even bother as this recommendation will probably just continue to receive the "stony silence" it usually gets?
Jim

Jim m: Thats a great idea that could benefit medals collectors.
But to me it wouldn't really matter. Believe it or not, I don't mind buying an original if I get it for the price of a replica. So if someone wants to sell me an original Blue Max in the case for $250, hey, gimme a call.

I like the Jim M idea of a vetted show. I have not heard this idea before, but then I am not allowed out much. That is just not practical though because it would take days to go through all the stuff at the big (and some small) shows. In the end the shows would be a lot smaller with less to buy also.

Maybe an add-on idea would be to have an independent board of "experts" appointed the first year. All customers could take any purchase to them during the show. Dealers would have to take back any item judged questionable and a fee (from the dealer in question) would be paid to the "expert" board to pay their wages.

The "expert" board would be voted on at the end of the big shows (maybe once a year) by the show dealers and customers. "Experts" that the majority did not re-elect would then be replaced by another candidate on the voting ballot.

All kind of complicated and expensive, but then killing the hobby with trash is too.

Sorry about all the typing, I usually don't stay serious for this long.

Please... Why do we keep referring to "Experts"? IMHO, "Experts" are in the eyes of the beholder. You can and, should become, your own "Knowledgeable" person. I'm sorry but, the word "Experts" is not in my vocabulary.

Manfred:
If you like that Blue Max I've got the London bridge for you. Wait a minute!! We do have the London bridge here in Arizona!!
Robin:
I have been told from past dealing in the antiques business that the actual vetting process doesn't take that long since most dealers don't put anything questionable on display to begin with. I'm not sure of the exact process but I believe repeat offenders caught during the vetting procedure are banned from exhibiting in the future.
I also think your idea of a panel has merit as long as this panels composition included collectors as well as dealers.
I believe the majority of collector share your concern that replicas are trashing this hobby. My only intent in posting in this thread is to try and come up with something to remedy the problem that is proactive and that both dealers and collectors can live with.
Jim

Three snags in a "vetting" panel/process would be, to be able to find individuals who do not have a vested interest in the show, in their own dealership, or the fear that going against the dealers/exhibtors, would affect their own future purchasing with with them.

IMO, I don't believe you will ever find such an unbiased, unafraid or non-vested interest individuals... Good Luck!

Come to think of it, there are two who come to mind, Don Boyle and Don Bible.

What I have been reading here pretty much confirms what I suspected all along. The metals collecting endeavor is a mess. Everyone says he's an expert for no other reason than to disagree with some other expert who 'got it all wrong'. Even the textbooks are all wrong, too, so you have to be your own expert who got his knowledge from years of experience. During this time (the learning period) you better not buy any significant medal or badge because obviously you don't know if the artifact is original, and you can't ask an expert because there is no such animal. And again, all the textbooks are wrong.
Against the backdrop of this sorry state of affairs buying high quality replicas is the safest way for obtaining a good facsimile for display without getting burned. I don't understand what the fuss is all about. In my book makers of quality replicas are doing the hobby a service.

With my Pharmacy background and job at the Illinois Veteran's Home and my 20 years of motel buys directly dealing with veterans and the source of much of my collection and inventory, I have had numerous "collector experts" tell me that items I bought directly from a WWII veteran was a repro. He MUST have gotten it after the war and lied to me about finding it during the war cause it doesn't fit the "accepted standard".
This especially true in medals (not metals) and has always been a problem on certain other forums.
I have finally given up trying to educate these so called "experts" and limit my comments to my experience and not theirs.
Next, I would say that when it comes to shows and vetting items and finding someone to do this is going to always be a problem.
Dealers go to shows to BUY as well as sell and they don't have time a a big show. There are only so many opportunities and so much time.
Then, they are almost all members of the "dealer cartell", so I don't think you are going to find too many that will go against their fellow dealer who may be the source of some item that they might need in the future (they take care of each other on inventory needs all the time).
I have not been a member of this cartell and don't intend to be. Next, I don't have to find my items at the show nor do I try to, but I think I am in the minority.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron,

I can only presume, from your above posting, that you basically agree with what I said? The only thing that I'm still concerned with is, how you would suggest we plug the hole in the repro dyke?

Jim,

You have advanced your idea about vetted areas in shows several times on GDC but that seed has fallen upon stony ground and failed to germinate. But, you might be barking up the wrong tree.

Why not take the bull by the horns and contact Houston Coates who is either the top guy at OVMS or he sits right next to him. Offer yourself as the spearpoint of a team to vet dealers at the big February Show of Shows. You have aleady said you'll be there.

Dave

An interesting idea Dave:
Would you be willing to take the responsibility of being the team member for vetting all edged weapons?
Jim

Jim,

I am not sure that I will go to SOS. I have reservations, but if there is a chance if snow, I will cancel. It is a 600+ mile drive.

You might consider as your #2 man Richard Kimmel, who called himself "Collector Inspector". If in doubt, he could use the powers he has told us about to check out questionable artefacts.

Dave

Dave:
I threw my last response out as a red herring as I really didn't expect any kind of committment on your part. I could also add that my attendance is iffy at this point to next years SOS since I'm still recovering from a debilitating 2 month illness and my attendance at next years SOS is still questionable.
The ONLY individuals who could make a true committment to vet a show are the promoters and that would take a concentrated effort on their part.
I am just a collector with concerns about the direction of this hobby. I offered the idea of vetting a major show as a proactive approach that one of the principal promoters of the two major shows here might wish to take.
Jim

Jim, why don't you contact Craig Gottlieb?? He might be your best opportunity to see if those in power are willing to do duty.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron:
Did you read my above post?
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Hohaus:
Jim,

I am not sure that I will go to SOS. I have reservations, but if there is a chance if snow, I will cancel. It is a 600+ mile drive.

You might consider as your #2 man Richard Kimmel, who called himself "Collector Inspector". If in doubt, he could use the powers he has told us about to check out questionable artefacts.

Dave

Dave, thanks for confidence, it couldn't hurt! Is the GDC willing to pay my way?

"Collector Inspector"

Dave Hohaus, I think we definitely need a Reproduction Forum for Medals and of course Manfred needs to be the Moderator. He is the obvious choice to extol the virtues of fine quality reproduction medals and with his vast experience he can discuss the subtle nuances of the various brands. Besides, he thinks all of us collectors are crazy to be worrying about repros and the problems they represent. He might get the Rex man himself to moderate.

Joe,

At one time we had multiples of some forums - one for each category. I remember 3 or so Collector's Showcases and ones like Community Centers and at least two Reproduction Forums. We got enough complaints so we cut it down to one of each.

Looking at it now, I am considering moving the Repro Forum from the Edged Weapons category to General Militaria.

Dave

Well, I guess I don't appreciate the problem with replicas as much as some people do. Here we just got our electricity back after a mean storm was raging through the Pacific NW and were able to see all the damage caused by it on the evening news. One feller was
particularly hard hit. The November rains had washed away half of his property and then the storm knocked down two huge fir trees onto his home splitting it in half. His SUV also got hit by a falling cottonwood. But during his interview for channel 7 he maintained a stiff upper lip but finally remarked that the biggest worry on his mind is the uncontrolled proliferation of reproductions of German military badges and medals. Now there is a feller who knows his priorities.

Dave,

I think it would be a good idea to move the reproduction forum into a more general category. Fakes ARE the bane of all collectors and I always like to keep up with reproductions to know what is out there. I remember that I always bought each one of Joe Walter's House of Swords and Militaria Catalogs each time it came out to see the latest batch of fakes that Joe had concocted. It always served me well and kept me from being cheated with his reproductions. Likewise, I always stop by Rex's tables to examine his reproduction stuff.

The difference between Joe Walter and Rex Reddick (IMHO) is that Joe cheated people by presenting his reproductions as original while Rex makes no pretense about his merchandise. It is ultimately up to the individual collector to know what he is buying and one does that by keeping informed. That is one of the main benefits of these internet forums, like GD.

George

George,

I have moved the Reproduction Forum from the Edged Weapons category to the General Interest category. The contents is unchanged.

Dave

Link to the reproduction forum.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/760095573

This thread has wandered away from Luftwaffe Flak Badges to reproductions in general. Lets try and give it a positive swing and at least post some reproduction badges to the appropriate section!

--dj--Joe

Here's another piece of Reddick's trash for your collection Manfred. He has duplicated the proper coloring of the letters and skis. I suppose that is an important point for a company making repro fillers for collectos who can't afford or judge the real thing. I didn't get a shot of the reverse as they were "under glass". The model number is not correct for this piece of trash.

If dealers of repro items were only selling these items as fillers or to be used by reenactors they would not have an issue clearly marking these pieces as "COPY". They may be selling them as a repro but as time goes by and they change hands all of a sudden they are original. Seems that some dealers don't care if an item is real or fake , they are only concerned with what will pass as an original. These dealers are the first cog in what amounts to FRAUD. I wouldn't buy a repro because you are only adding fuel to the fire. Wake up guys, if no one bought this crap they wouldn't make it, you're all to blame. Who wants to pollute their collection with questionable stuff anyway, not me. Those are just my thoughts.