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#213137 08/02/2007 06:29 PM
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I thought I would share this find with the forum, due to the educational nature of the dagger. Recently, I purchased a Grossadmiral flag from a UK veteran's family - from the wife and son. The veteran, whose documentation I am getting shortly, obtained the flag, along with a Navy Dagger, from the Admiral Hipper as she lay scuttled in Kiel after the war ended. When I received the package from them, I was surprised to find that the dagger exhibited "pressed in" scabbard bands, a feature that is common on reproduction daggers by Eickhorn. However, the reproductions, made in the 1970s, came with blades that had an "etched" trademark, instead of this stamped trademark. I discussed this piece with several friends who are students of Navy daggers, and they had always believed that the pressed-in-place scabbards are acceptible on late war daggers by Eickhorn, when found with plain blades and the stamped TM. Anyway, here's a good indication that they were right. Enjoy the photos.

hipper.jpg (90.39 KB, 692 downloads)

Craig Gottlieb
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#213138 08/02/2007 06:30 PM
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Another shot.

hipper1.jpg (70.51 KB, 688 downloads)

Craig Gottlieb
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#213139 08/02/2007 06:31 PM
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Another.

hipper2.jpg (57.42 KB, 665 downloads)

Craig Gottlieb
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#213140 08/02/2007 06:31 PM
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Next shot.

hipper6.jpg (62.49 KB, 654 downloads)

Craig Gottlieb
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#213141 08/02/2007 06:32 PM
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Last shot.

hipper3.jpg (60.23 KB, 665 downloads)

Craig Gottlieb
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#213142 08/02/2007 07:05 PM
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The dagger itself looks very good.
Also the stamped TM is just like it should be.

Did the scabbard has the Lightning-bolts
around the scabbard. Or only at the top and backside?

Medes


as Tom Johnson use to say:
"...the story is really theirs to tell" now we will do...
#213143 08/02/2007 08:05 PM
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It's got them on both sides.


Craig Gottlieb
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#213144 08/02/2007 08:43 PM
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Ive got a question here as to why. Usually when a manufacturing process is changed it's to save on materials or time.
Lets look at the traditional method of making one of these scabbards:
After the scabbard shell was completed the runners were installed and then the complete scabbard fittings were either sweated or swaged on. This is a simple and straight forward operation.
With the intergal fittings on the above scabbard the ring fittings would have to be aligned and than brazed to the scabbard body. This IMO would be more time consuming and the savings in materials would be minimal. Great care would also have to be taken when brazing because the scabbard shell is thin and warpage could be a problem.
I can understand why this would be cheaper today because a firm could use robotics to do the alignment and brazing.
Perhaps someone with more metal knowledge than myself can answer this.
Jim

#213145 08/02/2007 09:05 PM
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Craig, please, can you check if the scabbard is magnetic?
Thank you in advance, regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
#213146 08/02/2007 09:21 PM
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I Think the mind set that just because it came from vet it must be right-is not case closed. These vets acquired stuff years after the war my dad was WW2 82nd airborne he acquired 82nd stuff many years after the war some non official. That being said I can not dispute the scabbard one way or another the blade does carry the last Eickhorn mark.How about the grip wood cored?


Collecting Interests - Heer Daggers - Waffenrock - Portraits - http://WW2-Collector.com
#213147 08/03/2007 12:35 AM
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You are right, Tom - philosophically speaking. However, in this case, I spoke at length with the family, and the mother recalls him shipping both items home. The scabbard is indeed magnetic, as it should be. The fittings are late-war pot-metal. I didn't bother to disassemble the grip - it's never been taken apart in my view, but I'm sure it's either wood or plaster core.


Craig Gottlieb
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#213148 08/03/2007 02:56 AM
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This late Navy dagger is 100% correct as is. These pieces often have steel springs in the steel scabbards like Luft's and Army daggers.
I have seen several over the years and one had the original paper bag. They often have a greenish gold look as they were finished with a colored lacquer of some type. The pot metal fittings will age, crack, and crumble apart if not stored properly. The grip is the standard Naval type with the celluloid over wood construction. They are not very popular with collectors as they usually are in bad condition-- but in this condition-it's a different and nice item.
Sometimes the finish will be almost gone but if you really look you will find traces of the gold finish in the recessed areas. Some of these with almost no gold finish remaining have been polished resulting in a "silver" look. The claim is then sometimes made that they are Administrative Officer Daggers. They are not.


MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
#213149 08/03/2007 03:20 AM
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Ok Houston:
I'll buy into your explaination but my question still remains as to WHY? Where is there any material or time saving in the manufacturing here? Steel instead of brass? A half dozen 8mm cartridge cases would have made up the difference.
Jim

#213150 08/03/2007 06:59 AM
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Nice example, all of these late pieces I have seen have had the inverted trademark as this one. Interesting as to why Eickhorn chose to invert their logo only on these steel/potmetal examples...

Red

#213151 08/03/2007 11:57 AM
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Navy daggers provide a never ending source of new knowledge. The more you look at the more different features you will encounter. The last late, late Eickhorn navy I examined had all aluminium fittings and scabbard. The scabbard had a war time dedication on the reverse. The grip was white painted wood with standard wire wrap. The Eickhorn squirrel was also inverted.

#213152 08/03/2007 12:46 PM
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I also have had an all aluminum one in the past but I don't remember the maker. Rare stuff to be sure but historically the interest has been low. Now though, anything scarce and in exceptional condition is of interest. To me, anyway Roll Eyes Big Grin
As to why??--I'm not sure it was an attempt to save anything for the war effort but rather they were using whatever they had on hand or could find.


MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
#213153 08/03/2007 01:12 PM
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I understand what you are saying but keep in mind that the equipment to make the scabbard shells would have required a significient modification in order to press in the rings.

Here's the current example from WKC for comparison purposes:

dolchD.jpg (60.11 KB, 500 downloads)
#213154 08/03/2007 08:59 PM
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Craig, thank you for testing the scabbard. Such dagger configuration (late trademark, pot- or at least other than brass material fittings and steel scabbard with brass coating) due to my experience is period without doubt.
It is nothing than a brass coating applied over the steel shell of the scabbard, finally covered with a protection laquer (which often might be yellow toned to emphasize a "golden" look, but translucent).
Therefore also sometimes a strange looking color of these scabbards, somehow to the green color side.
Those brass scabbards with the "built in scabbard bands" (or "pressed out") are postwar.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
#213155 08/04/2007 10:04 PM
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i have one of these with an engraved blade and wooden runners i bought it from a vet who aquired it before the wars end so knew it was genuine i showed it to several experts who said it was post war but i believed the vets story so i kept it i am pleased to say

#213156 09/03/2007 09:08 PM
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Here are some neat photos I just got from the vet's family, of the vet who returned with the pieces. The family is keeping the originals (understandably) but they were very kind to scan copies for me, as well as provide photocopies of the officer's record book.

lax1.jpg (67.24 KB, 269 downloads)

Craig Gottlieb
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#213157 09/03/2007 09:08 PM
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Another.

lax2.jpg (69.73 KB, 264 downloads)

Craig Gottlieb
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#213158 09/03/2007 09:09 PM
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Third pic.

lax3.jpg (78.26 KB, 263 downloads)

Craig Gottlieb
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#213159 09/03/2007 09:09 PM
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Fourth.

lax4.jpg (69.99 KB, 259 downloads)

Craig Gottlieb
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#213160 09/03/2007 09:10 PM
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Final pic.

lax5.jpg (76.83 KB, 256 downloads)

Craig Gottlieb
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#213161 09/04/2007 07:16 AM
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he was a royal marine commando. very interesting stuff craig, thanks.

#213162 09/04/2007 08:36 AM
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This man would have undertaked his training at Lympstone, close to Dartmoor in the South West of the UK, which is probably where photo4 originates. The commandos had a heavy detachment during the war based at Plymouth for obvious reasons and 3 Cdo Bde are still based there today. Part of this brigade also includes the SBS ( special boat service ) the navy equivalent of the SAS.
This man was at the cutting edge of the UK armed forces in 1942 and sounds like a very interesting man!.


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