UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum Concentration Camp cuff titles

Would ss-workers and ss-leaders in camps wear special cuff titles ? And what would they be ?

I would recomment before you go into this SS collecting subject to buy some books like Angolias Cloth Insignia of the SS, the Mollo books or Beaver books or so on so on ... Even there is a search machine on germandaggers.com (third icon from left) where you easy find answers for already discussed SS threads.
Already google will provide you with very good links regarding your question.

The totenkopfverbande or deaths head units wore many cuff titles, including but not limited to oberbayern, brandenburg, ostfriesland, sachsen, elbe,thuringen, dachau etc. There were also officers version of these titles. Their collar tabs would sometimes also indicate their camp designation.

and also they didn´t got any titles on their tunics

...But, as I'm sure you know but forgot to mention, the simple appearance of "Oberbayern" or "Brandenberg" on their uniform wont indicate concentration camp participation...with all due respect, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Glowlight:
The totenkopfverbande or deaths head units wore many cuff titles, including but not limited to oberbayern, brandenburg, ostfriesland, sachsen, elbe,thuringen, dachau etc. There were also officers version of these titles. Their collar tabs would sometimes also indicate their camp designation.

Stephan thanks for the response. I need some more insight to this in regards to the cuff titles. I was under the impression that in 1933 the SS Totenkoopfverbande was formed to gaurd the SS concentration camp in Dachau. In 1936 the SS TV was formed into five sturmbanne:

1) Oberyayern assigned to Dachau
2) Elbe assigned to Lichtenburg
3) Sachsenburg assigned to Sachsenburg
4) Ostfriesland assigned to Ostfriesland
5) Barandenburg assigned to Oranienburg/ Clumbia- Haus

And then restructured into three Standarten in July of 1937:

1) Oberbayern assigned to Dachau
2) Brandenburg assigned to Buchenwald
3) Thuringen assigned to Sachsenhausen
4) Ostmark assigned to Mauthausen in 1938
5) And Dietrich Eckhardt in 1939

When the war started (late 1939 early 1940) these Standartens were replaced as camp gaurds by Allgemeine SS members and the Standartens were formed into the Waffen SS Totenkopf Division. I was under the impression that before this time cuff titles with such designations as "Brandenburg" or "Oberbayern" would be assciociated with the camps for which they were formed to gaurd. Thanks for information that may help clear up my confusion.

Not an easy subject, here is a flatwire cufftitle from the SS-TV

Prorege your cufftitle has that "been there and done that look". Thanks for posting the photo.

Okay, okay, okay. I'm gonna say this once so I want ya'll to listen closely. Just kidding.

Having family friends there, and having swam in the manmade lake there called the "Bagger See", I can say that "Dachau"...is a town. Just on the outskirts of that town, existed and still exists today, what used to be a NAZI prison/concentration camp. Now, there has not been enough discrimination made by armchair historians and Steven Spielberg, that the "Concentration camp", the town of Dachau, and the SS barracks are ALL different things, and have their own identity. Just because one might have been in the SSTK Oberbayern, in the Barracks in the TOWN of Dachau, doesn't mean that you necessarily worked the concentration camp.

So to recap:
1.) Dachau the TOWN
2.) Dachau the barracks
3.) Dachau the concentration camp

Three different things.

If you were in the SSTK stationed in the barracks in the TOWN of Dachau, you would have worn the Oberbayern or similar cuff title. However, just because you wore the cuff title doesn't mean you worked the concentration camp.

Maybe after collecting 4 or 5 of them, you might have one where the cuff title was at the camp, if that's what you're looking for.

Maybe you could test them for traces of Cyclon D.

Cdr. Wahl, I am afraid what you write above is not entirely correct. The Totenkopfverbaende were devoted chiefly to the concentration camp system in the first instance; in the second instance, they evolved into a paramilitary organization. Eicke began his work at Dachau and the organization spread from there, regardless of the training base infrastructure that was collocated nearby later on. The answer to this issue is in a volume of the mid-1960s edited by Helmut Krausnick on the Anatomy of the SS State prepared for the trial of guard contingent at Auschwitz. The subsequent literature on this score is voluminous, for instance, Sydnor's Soldiers of Destruction. I do not mean any dishonor to members of your family, of course, but the historical record on these things is far more open and shut than you and others indicate here. Nor would I embrace any theory of collective guilt, as such is always individual; however, the SSTV was a special organization within a special organziation. I would also leave Steven Spielberg out it, actually, if you want to make your case with the greatest persuasiveness and avoid any misinterpretations that are out of place granted the rules of this forum. To be sure, I do not take my clues about history and historical scholarship from any movie producer of any kind, and neither should any of us, regardless. You would do yourself greater favor by a citation of documentary evidence that can be checked by others. To be sure, this is all complicated, but the origins of the SS Totenkopfverbaende were plainly with the camp system, whether an individual was a warder or not. The work uniforms of those who actually were employed in the camps in the era 1933-1940 or so were umembellished, but it will not do to assert that the SSTV Oberbayern until 1939 was somehow quite remote from the central activities of the concentration camp system. Such may have been slightly different once the Totenkopfdivision was fully engaged in battle, but it is also an historical fact that the guard detachments were later described as Waffen SS units, as well. This fact is in Sydnor, as well, as in Wegner. These two volumes are the best scholarly treatment of the material and are free of tendentious apologia and the very real attempt made in the Federal Republic of the 1950s and 1960s to white wash much of what took place. If the foregoing offends someone, then I shall be happy to provide you with hundreds of years of cumulative research by dozens of scholars on this account, which you can choose to ignore at you wish. Please also understand that I have a long professional association with the German military and the German historical establishment; I have interacted with lots of people who lived through the III. Reich and am fully aware of the open wounds of all of this. However, this site is devoted to the study of regalia via the historical method, and it won't exist anymore if it falls into some traps inherent in the material itself.

Stephan,
If I might add one small correction. The SS barracks and officers' quarters were not in the town but adjacent to the concentration camp itself and formed part of the large Dachau complex.
Derek

In case my above intervention leaves some eager for literature on this score:
1. Robert Koehl, The Black Corps: The Structure and Power Struggles of the Nazi SS (Wisconsin UP, 1983)
2. Berd Wegner, Hitlers Politische Soldaten: die Waffen SS, 1933-1945 (Paderborn/Muenchen, 1999)
3. Chas Sydnor, Soldaten des Todes: Die 3 SS Division Totenkopf, 1933-1945 (Paderborn/Muenchen, 2003) This is an updated version of the original published by Princeton UP in 1977. See the biblio essays for all the literature ever published on this unit and then some.
4. Ronald Smelser et al eds. Die SS: Elite unter dem Totenkopf (Paderborn/Muenchen,2000)

5. Wolfgang Benz et al eds. Der Ort des Terrors: Geschichte d. NS KL Vol 1: Die Organisation des Terrors ( Muenchen, 2005)

6. idem. ibenda. Bd. 2 Fruehe Lager, Dachau; Emsland (Muenchen, 2005)

7. Klaus Drobisch et al. System d. NS Konzentrationslager, 1933-1939 (Berlin 1993).

SS-Officers and men of the staff of KL Buchenwald taken in 1940,no cuff titles amongst them from this image!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

It is also interesting to note that in 1939 a second group of middle-aged Allgemeine SS reservists took over the duties of the concentration camp guards from the original Death's Head establishments and were formed into SS Death's Head Guard Battalions ( SS-TotenkopfWachsturmbanne)
These guards lived in barracks outside the main camp compound. Not all SS personnel were allowed inside the camp parimeter.At Manthausen for example the average stength of 1200 SS and home guards only 50 SS men were allowed inside the camp itself.
I understand that later in the war these camps were mostly guarded by ethnic Germans,Rumanians,Slovacs Russians and long term prisoners etc with only the Officers and NCOs being able to speak German.These staff would certainly have worn various put together clothing garments and not too many cuff titles amongst them if any! ,,,,,,,,,,,,Stephen

Thanks to colleague Lee for the Mollo citation. His vol. 4 remains very useful, even if the secondary literature on which it is based has been superseded by three decades of further research. However, it is a very important source that indicates how complicated all of this truly was, in fact. The key to the SS is how rapidly it grew, how violent it was, how many different missions and functions it took on itself, how contradictory many of them were, and how it all reflected Nazi governance and statecraft in its vital essence. The organization existed only for twenty years, and hardly remained in a single, recognizable form for a year at a time. This fact bears keeping in mind when reflecting on the whole.

Mr. Abenheim,

I'll keep this as short as possible so as not to violate the rules of the forum. You have made many correct points. I'm just saying for collecting purposes, and Hoopers post confirms, that just because you have a "Oberbayern" or other cuff title that may be affiliated with a concentration camp "apteilung" doesn't by a long stretch guarantee you will have the cuff title of a soldier who worked the concentration camp at the respective location.

Not to open a pandoras box, but remember there was such a thing as "Einsatz Gruppe B". A small portion of SS soldiers were ever in that group.

Oh and, PS. Don't worry about insulting me or my family. As long as you come with well researched findings and supported "arguements", as you did, and not some slue of crazy accusations it's a good debate.

In answer to the question posed at the very beginning of the thread by Hl.Ie the only cufftitle that I know of that definitely was for members of a concentration camp only is the one for members of the staff of the camp commandant. This title was "Kdtr." followed by the name of the camp. "Kdtr. Dachau" for example. This cufftitle was authorised in December 1934. Not surprisingly, it is rarely seen in photographs.
Derek

I am glad that I have a history behind one of my Oberbay. cufftitles, the owner was a dentist Dr. at Dachau. Then I have one lot from one NCO 1.Oberbay. Dachau who was working for the X-ray Sturmbann, no title is shown in his pictures.

Thanks for the tremendous amount of knowlegde poured into this question. It is much appreciated. The reason, is I tend to lend my collection to Universities, and i never wanted to touch the subject of KZ, (not into confrontations) but some Universities, have over the years suggested that i do present that as well, I have been convinced! I would appreciate some pics if there are any, Maybe Mr. Fokkelman may grant us ONCE more the luxury of seeing his top notch collection, ?? thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Stephan Wahl:
Oh and, PS. Don't worry about insulting me or my family. As long as you come with well researched findings and supported "arguements", as you did, and not some slue of crazy accusations it's a good debate.

You are surely acquainted with my professional bona fides and my qualifications of various kinds to generalize about this material both in an antiquarian dimension as well as its historical aspect. Further, if you re-read my posts here and elsewhere in their number, you will not find anything, I warrant, that even in the slightest could be characterized as "crazy accusations," actually. If you are interested in sound, scholarly work on the Einsatzgruppen or any other aspect of the SS, I shall be happy to provide you with the relevant titles of great merit. I travel frequently to Europe and buy all that I can on this at times controversial and much misunderstood subject; I also interact with scholars working on this subject as well. And, I am engaged in a scholarly project on just this score, actually, with more than antiquarian interest in the here and now.

Where can I find a copy of this. "Helmut Krausnick Anatomy of the SS State"

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:

quote:

Originally posted by Stephan Wahl:
Oh and, PS. Don't worry about insulting me or my family. As long as you come with well researched findings and supported "arguements", as you did, and not some slue of crazy accusations it's a good debate.

You are surely acquainted with my professional bona fides and my qualifications of various kinds to generalize about this material both in an antiquarian dimension as well as its historical aspect. Further, if you re-read my posts here and elsewhere in their number, you will not find anything, I warrant, that even in the slightest could be characterized as "crazy accusations," actually. If you are interested in sound, scholarly work on the Einsatzgruppen or any other aspect of the SS, I shall be happy to provide you with the relevant titles of great merit. I travel frequently to Europe and buy all that I can on this at times controversial and much misunderstood subject; I also interact with scholars working on this subject as well. And, I am engaged in a scholarly project on just this score, actually, with more than antiquarian interest in the here and now.

Likely in advanced book exchange dot com. I did look there, in fact, and the thing is stuffed with it at very low prices. You should also look at the Robert Koehl book, too, as well; finally and most especially, Sydnor's book on the Totenkopfverbaende/Totenkopfdivision. The Krausnick book was published in German in about 1966 and this country in about 1968. Sydnor is the most recent scholarship, doubly so in German, actually. His book is from Princeton University Press. The Krausnick Anatomy of the SS State was written by various authors in response to just this issue to disentangle the strands of the SS entity that crossed over the line between party/state/paramilitary force, and, of course, the genocide enterprise as this problem emerged in the first major German trial of war criminals in the early and mid-1960s in the wake of Eichmann's trial. There has been much scholarship since then, but I have always found this Krausnick book to be excellent and a good place to start to understand all of this. Paul Hausser, however, as well as the other memoir literature of the 1950s and 1960s was, among other goals, intended to assure the social standing of Waffen SS veterans (i.e. pensions &c.), as well as offer a tendentious account of what had happened in the war. These works were hardly unqiue in this regard, as others, more removed from the most radical facets of the regime, also offered tendentious apologia for much of what happened in 1933-1945. Guderian's memoirs are a pretty blatant example of this white-wash, or, you have an extreme of a man like Rudel or even Remer. The latter was exceptional in his virulence, actually. Other professions were far more outrageous in their white washes and cover ups than were the senior veterans of the Waffen SS, who, in fact, had a right, in a way, to be angry at how they were singled out, when ex-Nazi judges, doctors, professors, civil servants, industrialists, usw. were able to re-adjust to Germany of the 1950s (East and West, actually..) with far less scorn and aprobrium than was the case of a man like Sepp Dietrich, for instance.

A bow from me and I'm sure others towards Mr. Abenheim. He again shows in this useful, sensitive discussion a particularly deft touch.
This propels the normal to-and-fro about who-wore-what (as important as it is) towards a higher, seriously historiological plane.
Thanks not only for the knowledge about Cool Stuff, but for helping us all better grasp the mentality of those who created and wore it. - Excellent perspective here. Your time, thoughtfulness, intellectual rigor and professional background are much appreciated. Happy New Year to you and to all.

Many thanks, dear colleague. This is important stuff and we would do well to get it right. It is not for the faint hearted, and the complexity of all of it requires an informed mind. When one of the leading publishers described this to me "...as a hobby..", I always objected to him that the study of the past is a calling, not a hobby. I have always thought that a mentally lazy, misinformed collector merely offered the crooks an easy target for fakes and frauds. Ergo, my zeal. Further, when one has a professional affiliation with the levers of state power and how nations deal with each other, then one tends to take this all very seriously. Sapere aude! By the way, there are a growing # of SSTV pieces of regalia on the market.

Three cheers here for such a devoted historian. We are all greatly enriched by his presence. Thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by Hl.Ie:
Three cheers here for such a devoted historian. We are all greatly enriched by his presence. Thanks again.

Thank you for posing a question with many confusing aspects and which is really very difficult to understand on the face of it, in fact. I am very focused on this issue at the moment for regalia reasons as well as scholarly ones.

Erd Braun
The Totenkopfverbande Soldiers that guarded the first concentration camps wore the functional Earth Brown uniform.As with everything else,the SS had strict regulations governing the insignia to be worn on it.Cufftitles were not authorized.All insignia was removable.i.e Collar Patches w screw posts,shoulder strap and Kampfbinde,as well as all the buttons.
This was obviously done to facilitate cleaning.

SS Totenkopfverbande Men wearing a variety of work clothes.Ca.1938.

According to Michael Beaver's section on Concentration Camp personnel, the black uniform was used for dress functions (and it looks to be read as any time you were out in public as you had to wear the "Black" uniform for dress, honor guard and while on leave). The "Earth gray" was used for camps purposes, until replaced in 1937/8 by the "field gray". These "gray" uniforms (according to Beaver, who quotes from regulations dated 1935/6) were to be worn with armband, collar tabs, shoulder boards w/out numbers BUT WITHOUT SLEEVE EAGLE AND CUFFTITLES. These regulations applied to officers and enlisted men.

As Pablo points out in his photograph, there were many variations.

Now to the disagreement between Stephan and Donald...I believe you are both "kind of" correct, if I am reading you both correctly. The SS-TV were indeed camp personnel but the camps expanded rapidly once the war started or in the case of Mauthhausen, when Austria was annexed. The SS-VT Totenkpf was involved in the Polish campaign, therefore they (or elements thereof) had to be removed from the camps prior to that for training purposes so indeed at least a portion thereof was already being separated (from camp duty)in early 1939.

The Waffen-SS will always be tied to the camp system in the minds of latter day historians since Nuremburg and all of the propaganda of the allies during and since the war. In reality a very small number of the close to 1,000,000 members actually came through the camps, something like 35,000.

Stephan is also correct in that while indeed camps were manned by SS personnel, many never set foot inside the gates and/or had any link to the crimes there. Most were guilty of turning a blind eye and/or apathy at best. The numbers of those convicted of crimes against humanity support this as Mauthhausen while in operation for 5 years only had approx sixty SS exocuted/imprisoned for life for crimes in the camp and I believe there were approx 8,000 that passed through the camp during those five years. Other camps and the number of guilty (convicted) are also small. At Aushwitz, of all those tried only something like two dozen were hanged, an equal number were acquitted and the rest had a variety of prison terms handed out...some as low as 2-3 years. Some of these individuals were also guilty of crimes @ Bergen-Belsen as they were transferred there after Auschwitz was abandoned in the face of the Russians.

Any camp survivor account I have read mentions the "evil SS guards" but also (as Stephan points out) mentions the foriegners in charge or the "Kapos" which were as vicious or more so than any SS guard and these folks could have been any nationality/religion including Germans and Jews.

The above post raises a number of issues that go well beyond the limits of regalia, collecting, interesting in old clothes. I esteem my colleagues, but the only way, and I mean the sole way to get at this, is a couple of years of serious reading of some difficult books. Otherwise, one can repeat generalities, some of which have a vicious political agenda in the here and now. I did list the relevant titles, and of these, for those who cannot read German, the Sydnor book answers all the issues raised in the above post in a pretty overwhelming way. There has been a wider debate in Germany about the degree to which the soldier in National Socialism were involved in the crimes of the regime, and plainly, it is foolish to purport that 16 million members of the Wehrmacht were all as Streicher and Hoess. I also think the generalization above as concerns Mauthhausen are off the mark. For anyone who has been there, any assertions to suggest that somehow the place was not as bad as it was seems very suspect to me. Do stand on the spot where the guard pushed the inmates into the quarry or imagine carrying a hundred fifty pound piece of granite up the Todestiege.

However, the manner in which the SS via Bavaria took control of the concentration camp system from its chaotic beginning, and how the paramilitary organizations were built up there is also well known and in the formative years of same. It will not do to suggest that somehow this organization was detached from the atrocities, brutalities and violations of human rights, especially in the era 1933-1938.

And, while it is quite true that non-SS figures as well as inmates of various kinds (criminals, &c.) were involved in the brutalities of the camp, to raise the issue in this context is to blame the victim, which is wrong, really. It was the SA and SS who invented the system of camps as in Columbia House and Dachau, and it was Eicke who perfected the whole system in detail first in Bavaria and then from his HQ outside Berlin in Oranienburg. It was not the Kapos or the other benighted souls ensnarled in this system of terror who erected the camps and invited the SS to come along, as it were.

In any case, one can approach this undertaking in various ways, and I do this professionally for a group of people with pretty high standards. That is, it is not a hobby. Maybe it does not matter. Perhaps such a thing is out of place here, either for political reasons or whatever, which is a pretty slippery slope. And do not accuse me of hating Germans, either, since my life is wholly and fully the opposite, in fact. The collective biography of my family, if you are interested, speaks to this issue, as well in fact, no harm meant to Cdr. Wahl's grandfather, who is like many, many Germans I have known and still know with affection. I would also offer that the Beaver books are fine for colored pictures of uniforms, but as to the research on the organization of the SS, &c., then the Mollo books are better, and the books I listed above are a must.

PS I once owned a brown tunic like the one above, as well as the Schiffchen that went with it. All gone.

Pablo what a nice tunic you have.
It is realy an outstanding piece you have in your collection. I just remember Shea got a longer while ago one jacket on his webside, to stoopid I didn´t jumped on.

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:
The above post raises a number of issues that go well beyond the limits of regalia, collecting, interesting in old clothes.
.

The above post (mine) does go beyond the realm of old clothes, but it was in response to items already address in this thread by several people including yourself. It is agenda-less and comes down squarely inbetween your posts and that of the individual you were in discussion with.

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:
I esteem my colleagues, but the only way, and I mean the sole way to get at this, is a couple of years of serious reading of some difficult books. Otherwise, one can repeat generalities, some of which have a vicious political agenda in the here and now. I did list the relevant titles, and of these, for those who cannot read German, the Sydnor book answers all the issues raised in the above post in a pretty overwhelming way.
.

Donald, I have read your posts here and other forums and I do respect you and your knowledge but please do not assume that because you have a few more letters after your name that we are all dopes here. I have focused my readiong primarily on WWII Germany since I was about 12 years old, I am now 40+. I have practically every one of titles you mentioned and dozens other. I am sure your library is larger than mine but I do think I have a pretty good handle on the topic...not an expert but in no way a moron.

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:
There has been a wider debate in Germany about the degree to which the soldier in National Socialism were involved in the crimes of the regime, and plainly, it is foolish to purport that 16 million members of the Wehrmacht were all as Streicher and Hoess. I also think the generalization above as concerns Mauthhausen are off the mark. For anyone who has been there, any assertions to suggest that somehow the place was not as bad as it was seems very suspect to me. Do stand on the spot where the guard pushed the inmates into the quarry or imagine carrying a hundred fifty pound piece of granite up the Todestiege.
.

Did in any of my post or that of Stephan's "deny" (for that is what you are eluding to), that millions died and that many, many SS were responsible? I think not. I think that the modern day "professional historian" for the most part needs to rethink the "history" that has been based on 60 years of propaganda. Were there bad guards capable of ungodly evil, you damned right there were but lesser known are the SS personnel that saved inmates from starvation, spared them the whip by turning a blind eye to a variety of punishable indescetions....the latter convenietly forgotten.

You speak of Mauthhausen. It is a fact that approx 8,000 SS personnel came through there. It is a fact that only 60-ish were punished by death or life imprisonment. I do not argue that more than likely many more were guilty and probably deserved death, but I do not have to physically stand at the quarry to know that every, single SS stationed at that camp (for whatever duration) was not guilty of murder. I only need have the experience of being in the military (and common sense) to know that every post (even a SS run concentration camp) has postal employees, motor pool mechanics (or then maybe horse handlers), kitchen help, administrative personnel, armorers, etc as well as local populations to handle the "less desirable" jobs. Now try and tell me all these people, just because they were members of the SS, or just @ Mauthhausen, were guilty of war crimes, guilty of walking people at the end of a whip to their death in the quarry, etc.

Or similar, explain to me how the SS who were murdered at Dauchau were deserving of their deaths at the hands of liberated inmates and US Soldiers (as they had only just arrived and took over control of the camp after the guards & administration had fled...). These people were more than likely 100000% innocent but at a concentration camp and SS.

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:
And, while it is quite true that non-SS figures as well as inmates of various kinds (criminals, &c.) were involved in the brutalities of the camp, to raise the issue in this context is to blame the victim, which is wrong, really.
.

How does saying that there were some people other than SS camp gaurds who were ALSO guilty, blame the victim? If anything it is a more accurate statement than the past 60 years of omission, which has laid guilt primarily at the feet of every SS person, and secondarily at the feet of the entire German nation. If one looks at "The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust" there is a pretty large section on the war crimes of other nations and various high level participants, including those working at camps...is it also taboo to bring this up, blaming the victims?

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:
In any case, one can approach this undertaking in various ways, and I do this professionally for a group of people with pretty high standards. That is, it is not a hobby.

Does the group have "high standards", or an agenda that may want to white wash/overlook some truth?

Donald, this thread may not be the place for our discussion and I would be just as happy to discuss this via email as (a) I like to learn and (b) I like to debate, especially re: this topic.

We can have this discussion face to face, in fact, which I am sure would be very different than the post above. In the meantime, I want to bid you all farewell. This site has been in free fall for awhile, and this is the final straw for me. I have expended a considerable amount of effort here, and I have better things to do with my time than engage in this kind of ****. Servus.

My posts were 100% civil. I have not noticed any "free for all" in this post, just an exchange of different ideas.

I remember when I was attempting to apply to Villanova university for an MA in History. My BA was in computers and I had a ton of additional credits but he would not accept me into the program until completed several more courses in History. On the surface I agreed but when I tried to explain my age/life experience and my broad scope of historical reading he stated, "the classes were to get me to begin thinking like a historian".

I hope this behavior is not indicative of the typical "historian" and NO, I did not go to Villanova for an MA.

Don is a valued contributor to this and other forum sites, as is Fran. So, I offer this bit of my own wisdom. When you get displeased with forum activity, take a break, but don't quit. If you get into a heated debate with someone, remember that it's only a heated debate. Even if people lose their cool (which I caution against), at the end of the day, we're all on the same team. I've had terrible arguments (in person) with friends before, over politics for example. However, rarely have I thrown the friendship away. I also think the Mollo books are a "must read" for anyone interested in SS cloth. I have an extra set if anyone needs one.

quote:

Or similar, explain to me how the SS who were murdered at Dauchau were deserving of their deaths at the hands of liberated inmates and US Soldiers (as they had only just arrived and took over control of the camp after the guards & administration had fled...). These people were more than likely 100000% innocent but at a concentration camp and SS.

First of all Donald,please stay, this type of knowledge as you say,is crucial for those who collect SS. Ive always felt it important to know whats behind and items existance.Too many young collectors like it because of the runic symbols and the black which for them fits right in with the love of extreme anything in the world today,"its cool" and "synister". But they take little time to read and learn.
I not unlike Fran, have read many books on the subject but I find my knowledge limited without the chance to spend hours,days like yourself to study.

Fran,after reading the quote above I found myself thinking,when Waffen SS troops were sent to the Camp to replace the guerds who ran off, what was going through there heads when they saw what they were guarding? Was that not the perfect opportunity for them to change what they saw to distance themselves from the system?Yet they as we all know, just followed orders.Why on earth would thier commander allow what he saw to continue and follow orders to guard it and protect it from advancing allies? This is why tis subject is so complex, I guess one would have to have know some of the characters involved and thier mindset at the time to understand fully what was going on. A man like Donald devotes his time to study this and to share it here.A free university level lecture that I feel priviledged to be exposed. to.

John,

I am not busting balls here, just asking a question...do you know what transpired at Dachau that day? There is a book or two out there, one I believe might be a tad far fetched in the numbers of SS killed that day. I have the NARA records here somewhere, if you'd like them email me your address and I'll copy them and ship them out to you.

I am not 100% now on all the details and I do not have time at the minute to write in detail but it is something like this:

Waffen-SS detachment somehow ends up at the camp, finds most everyone gone and the officer in charge, a lieutnant I believe begins to keep order (i.e. not murdering but not letting anyone leave either) and walks out under the flag of truce to surrender to the advancing Americans. He is promptly shot. The NARA records differ in the number of SS killed from the photographic evidence but lets just say that there was more than a tad bit of retribution meeted out against the SS that just happened to be there.

I am not sure what more you'd like to have them do.

In regards to Donald and his departure, if he indeed follows through on his threat, I told him as much in my post that I respected his level of knowledge, but disagreed. Because one has a bit more education than the average person does not mean they are 100% accurate all of the time. I like reading his posts but if I disagree, I'll disagree.

Fran: I have to agree with your analysis. You definately demonstrate your knowledge, and open-mindedness that is unfortunately missing from the forums.

Donald, bitte bleiben Sie.

Hi all
I`ve read about the killing of the w-ss combatants in Dachau, and there was many incedents of atrocecy on all sides. Just start reading history and ask veterans and you will get answars! While our allies are creating history in the world today, are we then not able on the GD forum to discuss yesterdays?? Com on guys..