UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Rising NM to Mint prices are hear to say!

quote:

I am afraid it is we, the collectors that have given rise to the increase in SA daggers as of late.

Ah yes. Any market has 2 main drivers. Fear & greed. The fear that collectors have of NOT having an item in their collection. As in "I better hurry up and buy this SA before they get to $3000 be a dagger. $1400 is a bargain compared to that. I better buy it now."

This is one of the better threads to evolve on this website. That being said, I feel I must add my two cents.
1. Since we starte with SAs, my observation is you had better BUY NOW, because when Wittmann's new SA book comes on the scene the prices on rare makers and nice conditioned pieces will JUMP.
2. Mint conditioned SAs (I don't believe they exist-just various level of Near Mint Conditioned ones) always have been hard to find. Now, with the interest in the political daggers, they are just HARDER to find.
3. Political Daggers (SA, SS and NSKK) always have been the flag ship of German Dagger collecting, so the demand is nothing new, just the number of collectors.
4. IF you don't think there are more collectors than ever before, just look at the number of full time dealers. They don't deal if there isn't a demand. It has increased exponentially over the past ten years.
5. Who cares if there are not a lot of collectors under thirty? It really is a matter of where is the available money. It isn't in the under thirty crowd, it is in the over fifty crowd and they are my customers.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Dang Ron, I just turned 46, are ya trying age me in the over 50 club before my time?

BTW, please bring 2 NPEA books for me to the SOS.

Best Regards, John

2 other items that I see contributing to this discussion on rating daggers and rising prices.

1. The quality of 3rd Reich edged weapons offered "openly" today as compared to 20 years ago, is considerably down. You see this both on dealers web sites and at the larger shows. Where as at one time a dealer would only rate a lower quality piece as in the "good or excellent - category, today we are seeing the same type of item with an excellent + rating or higher.

2. There is a considerable amount of "new money" that has come into this hobby both as collectors and dealers. Collectors with plenty of $$$ willing to pay what ever the price is to buy condition or a specialty item. And dealers that have plenty of $$$ to buy those items initially just to raise the price of those pieces considerably, knowing that they have those customers that will pay the price.

We're all caught up in it on one end or the other. Just recently a new dealer remarked to me " boy I wish I had back all those SS that I sold for the last 3 years that were priced 15-$2500" Now as a dealer he's out there buying at prices that have greatly surpassed what just yesterday was his retail figures.

JR's right.
The dealers know what's going on. The product is getting tough for them to find on the cheap. Ron has mentioned how motel buys have long dried up.
I know of a old collector in the South west who's "triming down" a bit. He told me TJ bought
70K from him - I knew the pieces, it wasn't cheap.
I saw TW at the last Pomona/Great Western show
in November buy a whole bunch of daggers from dealers tables. Including a 36-SS, type 1, that was in OK shape, for $5,200.
So when I see this going on, with the Big Boys
buying like they are, It tells me something.
Yes, prices are rising. And as JR mentioned above it is the "new monied" collector who has driven up these prices. The old guys would have never dreamed of paying $500 for a standard SA, let alone a $1,000. -wagner-

In my opinion, a 'mint' dagger wouldnt have so much as a runner mark on the blade..to me, mint means, PERFECT...runner marks are imperfections, and would not be on the blade at the end of the manufacturing process, which in my opinion is the only time when the blade is mint.. Correct me if I am wrong...

Unissued pieces are not mint if they have runner marks, they are just unissued..All of these terms are only benefitting the selling entity, they do nothing but cloud the issue for consumers, especially since the definition varies from dealer to dealer..
The following descriptions were taken directly from the website of a major dagger dealer...


Excellent plus
Near mint
Mint minus
Excellent
Excellent Minus
Excellent Plus Plus
Good Plus (WTF!)

These descriptions are so vague they are laughable.."good plus" ?!?! "excellent plus plus"
I mean, why not go ahead and include "Good plus plus plus minus" or "Excellent minus plus minus plus"

give me a break

when does a dagger exceed "excellent plus plus" status and graduate to "mint minus"

what flaw does a dagger have to have to not make the cut to "mint minus"?

At what point in the inspection process do you say, "Im sorry, its not 'mint minus' its 'excellent plus plus' at best"

its stupid

or, even better, please explain the difference between a 'good' dagger and a 'good plus' dagger...

its ridiculous!

good plus! HA!
.......good plus.
sheesh!



good plus?

When your buying: Mint -
When your selling: Excellent (maybe)

Good ++.... un-cleaned mint - -..... excellent +++ - - 1/2 +........ mint - - with a touch of +......... excellent - + -......... frosted mint mint mint with just the usual runner marks!!! .... good ++, only needs a new grip and blade and you're set....... dug out grip eagle, other than that totally un-touched!....... te-tipped but you'll love that Roman nose, good +..... Budget chain dagger, you provide chain, I provide dagger......... And lets not forget SALTYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY !!!!!!

please note, the above reflect my own grading system and and similarities to any know individuals is purely coincidence!

JR, you're killing me with this one. I can't stop laughing. I'll see you at the SOS.

JR, Roman nose, LOL!


All this confirms the thought mentioned above which is you have to have the dagger in hand to decide if it's for you. My beef with the inflated rating system is it costs me about $25 bucks to look at a dagger....meaning, I buy it based on a near mint rating...I get it, Dang, it's been re-crossgrained.
Now I have to pay to ship it back. This just happened to me with a major dealer with a HJ knife...all the original crossgraining the site said. After I sent it back, I asked him to look at the blade, and he agreed it had been regrained. It went back up on the site with the SAME description, no mention of the regraining! Did he refund my shipping expense since he made the error...nope, I got it coming and going, so to speak....

Good reason to go to the show, see things in person, ask experts. The only problem with a show is limited budget for most of us. Do I blow my wad on this piece or wait for something better? But then this one will be gone. All part of the fun of the chase. And now we are really competing with dealers who used to sit back at the opening of the show with all their vet stock purchases out for sale. Now they are out looking for stock at the shows. After it passes around a few times, the price is pretty high...


John

Wow! I really started a hailstorm of comments!

This is also the part of collecting daggers that I love! The fact of the matter is PAY TO PLAY! Just like any other antique once they are gone they are gone and you WILL PAY top $$$$ to get one.

JR You have bought and sold 40 SS daggers! Wow do you travel the globe to get them????

i only buy at shows. i cant believe how many people buy from a picture off the web. i dont need the hassle or disapointment. if its in my hand i can see the problems. i collect only the nicest ones i can find. but non of them are truely mint. i hate bagged and tagged pieces. id rather have a half dozen nice ones that 25 so so pieces. im lucky to find one real nice one at any big show. usually i dont buy from large dealers i just look real hard at everything on opening day of show. sometimes a nice one can be had for a reasonable amount of money. usually because the owner needs the money quick to purchase a more expensive item he found at the show. sometimes you can horse trade a few items and make a deal. deals are out there if you are patient. big dealers ask alot for these things, but they didnt pay that much for them. if you want the prices to level off then stop paying huge prices for them..

I don't pay a lot of attention to grading except as a loose guide. I classify a dagger in my mind when I get it as:

Great Dagger - Not likely to see one like this anytime soon. Even if I already own one, I'd buy this.

Nice Dagger - Would certainly buy it if I did not have one and maybe if I did.

OK Dagger - Would only buy if it was harder to find and I needed it

Damn, I Wish It Was Better Dagger - I would only buy it if a rare maker.

Bride of Frankenstein Dagger. Diverse body parts. Not for me.

Lab Rat - a really beat up dagger I would buy cheap to experiment upon.

That's how I see them. I suppose if I got dealers to use my system, there would be "Great Dagger Minus", "Nice Dagger ++"

My advice is look at the dagger in person and decide if you want it. It may cost $25 in postage, but compared to their price, ... not a big deal. Be sure to get a "no questions asked" return option.

Dave

quote:

Wow! I really started a hailstorm of comments!

This is also the part of collecting daggers that I love! The fact of the matter is PAY TO PLAY! Just like any other antique once they are gone they are gone and you WILL PAY top $$$$ to get one.

This is a good debate you started. Your generalization of antiques being gone and paying top dollar is baseless. Being an ecletic collector of things, including antiques, I have seen things go up and down. Heck. Bring it down to a simpler level. Sports Cards. In the late 80s early 90s the bubble peaked. People were "investing" in them then.I have a bunch of cards that I will never get my return on. That does not matter to me though because I collected them as a hobby. They may very well go up in the future.

The point I am trying to make is do not think Militaria will go up five-fold forever. Like everything in life, things go up and down. Real Estate, stocks,bonds, beanie babies, cabbage patch dolls(never understood that one). Those dealers who say that young collectors not entering Third Reich Militaria is not a problem, will be "retired" when it WILL matter. "PAY TO PLAY". Seems like a silly statement. "PAY TO PLAY AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME" seems more appropriate.

Edwardo, Silly statment? Baseless?

Fact: If you have a NM to mint graded PSA Mantle it is worth a foutune! Just go to e-bay, High grade baseball cards are still selling for MAJOR buck. http://cgi.ebay.com/1952-Topps-Baseball-Set-1-407-Mantl...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


http://cgi.ebay.com/1933-Goudey-Babe-Ruth-144-PSA-8-Yan...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

What about mint condition classic cars? 1957 Chevy
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Bel-Air-150-21...mZ120074387147QQrdZ1

Why was the Honus Wagner Tobacco card bought and sold, each time selling for 80-100k more?

Yes there are trends in markets but I beg to differ, if you buy the best quaility you generally you will make a few bucks in the future.

Like I said if you want to have the best of ANY antique you will pay!

Hi Edwardo,
Do you have any 1963 thru 1967 Corvettes, stock with matching #'s you want to dump quick?
Same for 67 to 69 Cameros?
Or maybe you have a GTB4 that's collecting dust you want to get out from under before the crash? -wagner-

I think this sold in 1969 for 6-8k?

Geeeeee loooook now! How about 54k!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Camaro-Z28-196...mZ230074770758QQrdZ1

The market for TR is hot - agreed. The market for TR is deep - people are more and more willing to pay five - figure prices these days. But how wide is the market? Things might seem more stable if it could be shown there are say 50,000 collectors with deep pockets rather than 500. I've never seen any stats on this.

quote:

Posted 23 January 2007 19:43 Hide Post
Hi Edwardo,
Do you have any 1963 thru 1967 Corvettes, stock with matching #'s you want to dump quick?
Same for 67 to 69 Cameros?
Or maybe you have a GTB4 that's collecting dust you want to get out from under before the crash? -wagner-

I have a 1970 Plymouth GTX 440 4-speed. One of 1471 made. Has it appreciated in value since I bought it? You bet. Do I believe it will go up forever? No way. For 120K you can have it right now though.

Now if you look at American Cars built in the early part of the 20th century that market hit its peak and has come down. 10 years ago that was the hot market for cars. But those guys who bought their childhood dreams are dying off now. Next to fall will be the street rods. But there will always be a buyer at some price point for anything.

Fact: If you have a NM to mint graded PSA Mantle it is worth a foutune! Just go to e-bay, High grade baseball cards are still selling for MAJOR buck. http://cgi.ebay.com/1952-Topps-Baseball-Set-1-407-Mantl...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


http://cgi.ebay.com/1933-Goudey-Babe-Ruth-144-PSA-8-Yan...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


How many times have those card been relisted. It looks like it has not sold yet. The "greater fool" theory in action. As for the Bel-Air, I can understand that now. That is it for now. The president is calling. And I WON'T debate POLITICS!!!!!!!

"Next to fall will be the street rods. But there will always be a buyer at some price point for anything."

Sorry Edwardo, but your first statement was just blown out of the water. You contradicted your other statements. I am 31 and would love to own a 30-40k street rod. Will they go down? Nope why is a model A still selling for 20k in mint condition?????? How many 90-100 year olds are still buying them?..... Its their children! Mantle set sold for 20k. Search the web, you will find mint Jordan’s, Ruth’s, Rose all selling for major $$ Because the truly mint are very RARE thus there is always some kind of demand.

The best always bring more $$.

Eric, I agree with you. The internet offers a portal thru which anyone can claim anything with a post. Fairy tales to a large degree.

Mark

Bill Shea is the only major dealer I know that actually markets and sells "Lab Rat"* daggers.
He always has a table on the right side of his display with the busted ,abused,downright ugly and other items the "Cult of the Mint" sneer at. These daggers are the equivelent of $25 ladies of the night on the strip at Vegas. If you're like me you're going to inspect them to see if Bill made a mistake but you're hoping no one who knows you catches you doing this. To date Bill IMO has graded these accurately but hope springs eternal in the minds of the frugal!!
*"Lab Rat" Now that's a descriptive phrase I really like but I expect most of the dealers would have a problem with!!

quote:

But there will always be a buyer at some price point for anything."

I should have added for some individual the statement- "But there will always be a buyer at some price point for anything, be that 10 cents to 10 million".

As for Kingtigers post "The internet offers a portal thru which anyone can claim anything with a post. Fairy tales to a large degree."

Heck, I agree. I understand that messageboards are the means to keep the fairy tales alive. Since I have been here I have seen a few long standing members leave for various reasons. All markets go up and down. No market is any different. But is obvious, that anyone who gives a point of view, that goes contrary to, the "3rd Reich to the Moon" dealer/owner mentality, gets shot down very quickly. Hey. I win too if the "treausure" goes to the moon. But I thought this was a forum for collectors too. Should they not be informed of the risks inherent with "investing" in our hobby. Obviously I have stirred the pot due to the size of this thread. I am not making spinning fairy tales. Heck I have 20K to spend on some stuff. Who wants it. Looking for Chained SS, Teno Leader, Postal, Hunting. I have made my point I believe. Money is just a means to an end. In the end we are all dirt. Nuff said from me on this subject.

That Z28 makes my 69 Camaro RS/SS factory original with original warranty plate look real good. I put it away with 85,000 actual miles, all original, and still have it. 350/300 HP 4 speed Hurst with special insturmentation, she is all there and still a runner. Bought it new when I graduated from Pharmacy School and kept it garaged all the time.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Good Go Ron! I wish I kept my 68 Camero Z28. With muncie 4 speed with the Gage package. Now that was a great car.
But still today, I would rather pay 15K for a clean Himmler SS dagger, than 120K for any 440 GTX! It's not even a Hemi. For $120K I could almost buy 2 Testarrosa 12 cylinder Ferrarri's!
Let's see.. I can get 8 clean Himmlers... or
one 440 GTX... Gee, I wonder what I'm gonna do? -wagner-

Ferrari is a good example of the eccentricities of the collector car market. After Enzo Ferrari died there was a trmendous run up in prices of the early models. I'll use the Daytona which is my favorite model as an example. From the late 60s until the early 70s there were 1500 Daytonas(365GT) built. Of these 125 were Spyders(convertibles). The more common coupes were selling in the $500K range while the Spyders were routinely bringing over$1000K. The last Daytona couple I saw sell after the market for these cooled went for under $100K. You rarely see one at auction right now as those who bought them at the height cannot come close to recouping their investment.
Jim

Fine, Ferrari's peaked and fell..All I ever read about is how mint daggers can no longer be picked for a few hundred bucks..Or back when you pick up helmets for $5..Now helmets sell for hundreds and in many cases thousands of dollars...

Lets bring this back around to 3rd Reich stuff...
I am 31 and been collecting for 4 years now, so I dont have the experience that you senior collectors do..
What group of items have been purchased at one price range only to decline a year or 2 later?
and if there is such an example, has it since taken off again to surpass that temporary low?

helmets, daggers, uniforms?
Has it ever happened before? Im not suggesting that our hobby is immune from such trends, but has it yet happened?

I think some of the leader daggers, like Postal, RLB, had a price jump...but they didn't sell well at the higher price. They have stagnated. I think the the reason is this: When I started collecting over 25 years ago, many people had the goal of getting one of every type common dagger, including leader pieces...railway, HJ leader, postal, etc. Now, I'm not talking about the SA high leader, etc, but the common leaders. When the prices of Gov official daggers, and other leaders daggers went up to 4-6K...many people decided they couldn't afford to get the entire set...so the onset of type collecting! This caused the demand for leader pieces to drop in my experience. I think the value of my leader pieces did keep up with inflation, but that's about all....

I think collectors are all getting wrapped up with the prices and the "investment" aspects.

The fact that TR items have gained great value in the past few years makes it more exciting. (Just like stocks) Thus people can rationalize spending big $$ on a dagger if they think it will pay big dividends in the future. Textbooks, trade shows and some lucrative marketing driving up the demand for items causes a chain reaction of price increases witch drives the market. SO you see the demand for these items gaining momentum from collectors thinking; “gee my SS dagger I bought for 1k 10 years ago is now selling for 4k what a great investment and I better get in the SA high end stuff before I am left out!” Thus fueling the fire!

One market that is slow compared to the TR stuff is Imperial items. Compared to TR these items are slow movers. I find the imperial items are of MUCH higher quality and MUCH rarer, but are usually priced more reasonable. However no one is giving them away. People are still collecting Imperial items but it is a smaller market of collectors thus not driving up the prices as much.

Collect what you like; this is the most important factor.

I like the fact that I can break even and in some cases make a few $$ but in the end I just find these items fascinating and will continue to by them.