UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Himmler, early?

Hi,
Just got this home.
I guess this motto would make it an early production run?

Best regards,

2

3

4

5

6

7

Last pic.
Crossguards are HE, tang is marked with "A" inside-a-circle and numbers 11 further down.

Cheers,

They were all early, as they were made in 1934.

Beautiful dagger and in a fantastic condition.
Well done !

Thanks Pat

It's just that I noticed that the motto of mine has the same characteristics as the early big oval Eickhorn MM.
It causes me to think there were more than one production run of these, as a few other Himmlers I have seen have had the later in-house Eickhorn motto applied on the obverse.

Best regards from wintery Norway

Nice blade Tor Helge
Not many of them in Norway ..

Congrats with a nice Himmler .

Regards LH 600

Tor-Helge, I think this is what you are talking about. Here is a pic for comparison. The upper dagger in this pic is the Eickhorn motto usually seen with the large, smooth tail, double oval trade mark. The lower dagger in the pic is the other motto seen on Eickhorn SS daggers. Note the difference in the "T" and "H".
Jim

LH 600, thanks. No not too many in our country

Jim, you are spot on!
Looking at p.104 in Wittmanns book is a picture of a Himmler with the same motto as the lower (later motto) in your fine comparison-pic.
Makes me think there are several production-runs.

Cheers,

I have wondered for a long time if there was a correlation between the "early" motto and the double oval, smooth tail, maker marks both large and small. Jim

Does the collecting community accept that there were more than the initial 200 Himmler inscribed SS daggers made?

If so I would like to float this theory.

We know by the different Eickhorn trademarks (early to late) that the SA Honor daggers with damascus blades have been made over the course of about a ten year time span.

Now given that fact would these two similar but decidedly different Eickhorn trademarks also suggest a prolonged run of Himmler inscribed SS daggers? An initial run of the previously accepted 200 number for those that actually participated in the purges of June 1934. Possibly the smooth tailed variety. The serrated tail variety could perhaps be a later run of Himmler honor daggers to take the place of SS officer's degens once Germany was in a serious war mode when strategic materials became scarce for non essencial items? Himmler certainly had the clout to circumvent this stipulation. The use of a modified early trademark would have been one way to differentiate the two production runs.

Consider that the cost of an already established dagger would be less costly and easier to produce than the SS/Police officer's degen in both materials used and the time to produce the degen. Is it possible that at some point these 'later' Himmler daggers took the place of the SS degen?

Given that the Himmler inscribed daggers were an 'honorarium' item from Himmler, as was the SS degen and SS ring, they would not have been procurred thru the RZM system. Just like the damascus versions of both the SS and SA Honor/High Leaders Daggers.

Just some thoughts.

Tony

I had also wondered if the initial run of 200 Himmler daggers had the "early" Eickhorn SS motto. This "early" Eickhorn SS motto was used on more than just Himmler daggers. It was also used on some standard and some Rohm daggers. I have a ground Rohm and a double marked 941/36/SS large double oval that have the early motto. The Rohm dagger has the entire dedication and maker mark removed so I don't know what maker mark it had. I would like to know if the Eickhorn, small double oval, smooth tail, maker mark is found on SS daggers with the "later" Eickhorn SS motto.
Jim

Interesting thoughts Tony.
I fully support the idea that 200 made daggers is too few.
My 0.02$ worth of thoughts are that this may be correct for the purge.
But again, after the purge and the order of erasal of the R�hm-widmung I guess that some of the original R�hm-dagger recipients would indeed receive a new Ehrendegen (with Himmler widmung) from their new leader?

I have some reservations to the theory that the dagger substituted the degen, I would guess that the contrary happened;
That the Ehrendegen replaced the Ehrendolch(mit widmung Himmler).

The degen was not instituted until 1936
Atleast the degen is mentioned in the dienstaltersliste in 1938 and 1944.
We know the quality of materials used on the degen became worse as the years went, from the early solid nickel-silver through to plated steel fittings in the later models, and the chromed Dachau made degens...

Coincidentally, there are no known 1936 chained Himmler daggers without makermark. And very few Himmler daggers in '36 style scabbards are around.



Now, I am no expert on all the details of all the Himmler daggers.
But all are made in high quality materials.
But I guess we can break them into 2 groups initially based on trademark.
-Smooth tail
-Serrated tail

Now I need the help from you guys having databases of Eickhorn daggers.
- Can we conclude that the Large & small oval smooth tail makermark all have the same motto?

- Likewise, do all serrated tail Himmlers have the later motto?

I guess we need a full review of the details of the Himmler daggers to be more certain of exactly how long the production run was.
But I dont think it lasted for very many years, just too few variations in makermark

Cheers,

Very nice dagger Tor-Helge.

I`ve been waiting to get a chance to see this and it was worth the wait.

Best Regards from too long winter-Norway.

Lovely!!

The idea that there were only 200 Himmlers is an idea that is soooo long out of date that I can't even remember how long. So long ago that the bench/assembly number was thought to be the serial number.
There were at least two orders and probably more.
They were not just made in 1934. A real in depth study is yet to be conducted.
Is is widely thought that there may have been as many as 6000.
Some of you guys really need to buy some books.

Houston,
Where does the number 6000 originate from?

If memory serves me right, there were 9900 SS R�hms ordered, and it would be logical that quite a few of these 9900 were to be replaced with a Himmler inscription dagger after the purge? No?

BTW, my 500.th posting here after groupee made me forget my last username a loong time ago...

Cheers,

Hi--It is just an estimate based on the number of these we have seen over the last 50+ years. They are really not that rare--but very rare in really!! mint condition. MANY are held in collections around the world and several collectors have several more than just one.
IMO the Himmler dagger was presented for a whole lot more devotion to the SS and Himmler than just years of service.

I bought a book. Whitmann seems to think about 2500 were made.

I like some of Trigger's questions, so I will answer one.

As far as the material quality of daggers goes it can varies greatly. This a link to a MCF thread dealing with the chemical compositions of SA and SS daggers that I and Frog Prinz are working on. It is very interesting. http://www.militariacollecting.com/index.php?showtopic=66883

The rest of Trigger's questions were:

"I guess we can break them into 2 groups initially based on trademark.
-Smooth tail
-Serrated tail

Now I need the help from you guys having databases of Eickhorn daggers.
- Can we conclude that the Large & small oval smooth tail makermark all have the same motto?

- Likewise, do all serrated tail Himmlers have the later motto?

I guess we need a full review of the details of the Himmler daggers to be more certain of exactly how long the production run was. But I dont think it lasted for very many years, just too few variations in makermark."

I have debated this endlessly with other collectors and dealers. Putting together what I think/know about these daggers, here is my best guess at what happened;

1.The original order seems to have been for 200 daggers and these were for the the SS men involved in the murder of Rohm and the other SA leaders. The daggers are an obvious (to me) knock-off on the Rohm dedication daggers. I can't track that "original order" back to any period document.

2.There were a lot more than 200 of these made so there were subsequent orders. A couple (or a few) were even found in stock at the factory. The number made is unknown and there are a lot of guesses but no proof as has yet turned up.

3. The quality of these daggers was superior to other SS daggers and stayed far better until production stopped. I have late a late SA High Leader dagger with a pot metal eagle but I have never seen a Himmler with anything but nickel silver fittings.

4. I do not think that they were handed out as a replacement for the 9900 Rohm dedication daggers. My guess is that they were kept in stock at the RFSS's office and given out by HH himself as recognition to deserving SS men. Probably something that did not merit a medal or ring or sword or honor dagger. I wonder if perhaps this was for enlisted men who were not eligible for the ring/sword ?

Anyway, that is my guess. I hope someone has hard info.

Dave

Paloma, very interesting link. Thank you!

Dave, re your pt.4, I do know that HSSPF Nord, Ogrf. Wilhelm Rediess had a Himmler dagger. I am certain quite a few officers who never were of lower rank were given these.

Best regards,

Years ago I recall a post from a European who had obtained a Knight's Cross and Himmler presentation dolch from a former Waffen SS member.
The European's story was that the SS member told him that Himmler 'recognized' his award of the KC by awarding him the Himmler dagger. It's a story that makes sence but, to my knowledge, is not supported by any documentation.