UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Fact Check on "Echt Damast Paul Muller" Daggers

I am having a private conversation with a friend of mine, and he wishes to see a discussion on the following types of daggers:

Those damascus daggers with the "SS in a circle" roundel on the blade, and/or the "Echt Damast, Paul Muller" writing on the ricasso. Please post photos of examples you have (SS or any other type) and also comment on your views on this particular type of blade.

I know what these are, but my colleague is still doubtful.

Here is another example, this with the Echt Damast, Paul Muller lettering. This blade is from the original Goering Industrial Dagger, the blade having been replaced in the 1960s (well known story) by one of these post-war blades.

Then there are the plethora of letter openers bearing the same nomenclature (these exnibit BOTH characteristics - the SS roundel and "Echt Damast, Paul Muller."

It is my contention of course that these examples are all post-war creations manufactured by Paul Muller for Atwood. Can people add to this statement, and corroborate it?

I remember back in the 80's when I heard all the storys from Mueller and Dinger. I assume there is not much to add on ...

Craig,
Back in the days when Mueller was producing these for Atwood we used to see many examples at all the Gun shows.
In fairness to Mr. Atwood he did not sell them as "originals".

Regarding the Mueller Himmler letter opener, as you know some seemed to have been produced by Mueller during the war. Unfortunatly the vast majority were produced in the 1960's.
Some say they were only produced post-war. But I believe otherwise.

Regards,
-serge-

All fake IMO or 99%. I would estimate at least 1500 of these fake blades exist on many types of daggers in collections today. Probably a lot more.
These were made to fool collectors not as an "example repro piece' or some other legitimate "Filler" piece.
Make no mistake! They WERE sold as REAL and PERIOD to collectors.
One has only to look at Atwood's "reference" book to see a lot of this junk presented as 100% REAL.
Did he make up the book to inform and educate collectors or to confirm in collectors' minds that this junk was real so it could be sold and not returned?? Duhhhh-- watta ya think?
All collectors should have this book though--to identify the junk in it and as testimony to the great damage it did to the hobby.
IMO--It did more damage to the hobby than any other one thing ever.
It caused personal economic disaster to many individuals and caused them to quit the hobby. It still even does damage today, when used by the unaware.
Sadly, I can't label it as complete garbage as there are some good period pictures in there. Otherwise I would be recommending a mass burning of all of them that could be found.

NOT JMO

Well , that not tru , not true at al
The Blade are made by P Muller

How many can make a Turkish Damast pattern blade with that quality ?????

Today - Max a handfull people i the world
an price on it ?? - very very much

Picture of it

The post-war letter openers go for about $1500 (I have one on my website WITHOUT the "telltale reproduction" lettering that is slightly more.

I am far from knowledegeable about damascus, but would hesitate to buy a dagger with one as those marked above. The only ones I would feel comfortable with that have a maker mark are the "Eickhorn" honor dagger blades and perhaps some miltary dagger blades with other convincing characteristics. Tang markings are another matter, if present. I may have missed good buys and may continue to do so, but I will stick to the more or less "conventional wisdom" that these blades are highly questionable as to being produced during the Third Reich period. For those who don't care when they were made, "to each his own."

Here's another one, with the same telltale "SS" roundel on the blade. As you can see, there were many different types of this blade produced. And Grumpy: you are right - the ONLY correct SS Honor Dagger are the textbook varieties as found in the gallery on my website (I've owned 5 of them, many of which are pictured there).

I agree with Serge also, that Muller did produce letter openers during the war. However, none of those had the "SS roundel" on the blade, in my opinion.

wonder what a SS member thought when he would see golden runes ...

One other point to consider when viewing these post war blades is that the workmanship IS NOT equal to period pieces. Anyone who has worked with these post war blades often sees the edge cracks, open places in the patterns and other flaws that you just don't find on original blades.
Don Swanson who works with period damascus all the time has often pointed this out to me.
Post war makers just didn't do the same quality work and it is seen in the pieces produced after the war.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

Greg your 1st post MOOG blade is not even damascus. It is a etched damascus. Your Paul Weyersberg is also not damascus etched to look like it.... I own two turkish Paul Muller flame or Kriss style blades one postwar made in Cronenburg the other early 30s... Also have a unhilted turkish sword blade made by Paul post war in cronenburg. I have two letter openers made by Carl Wester 1937 and two Paul Dinger letter openers (one came from his son.. Also have other period damascus.. The Manfred Sachse book on damascus is a must have.. Manfred is no longer working (but he bought his forge from Carl and paul....) You can have period flaws in Turkish damascus Many of the SS honor swords are by no means perfect. I owned a period turkish piece marked A+M in a circle that had flaws. Sometimes when people rework the blades and use the wrong acid or burn it>>> over etch the damascus you can start having the metal delaminate ... I'm sure Don does not have this problem. But I can tell when he has worked on a item... Jim

Sorry for the spelling (Graig)

etched or real damascus, is it possible to see if it is really real Damast steel with all it's layers from the outsite? One old blade maker told me many years ago it is just only possible to cut a piece off or grind it sideways open to see the layers to get the real proof about it.

Robert: Damast is 100% correct - these examples are not genuine damascus that I posted. As far as I can tell, any of the "roundel" pieces - damascus or not - are from the Muller/Atwood era. They apparently created both types. He's also right on that the "myth" of damascus perfection is just that - a myth. Most of the 4 band I have owned - in fact, all of it - exhibits flaws. It's just the nature of the creation process, and also part of the beauty. The two Birthday degens I've owned both had these flaws (the Schroeder sword had almost none, however). As for "spotting" actual damascus versus artificial damascus - once you know the patterns, the artificial is easy to spot.

Yes, Craig it is easy to tell. Here is a photo of two (period letter openers band pattern) made in 1937 They were made for a big IND. fair in Dusseldorf 250 were made and they turn up time to time...The mag. is a 1937 Die Klinge Regards: Jim

Those letter openers are beautiful. Would you mind posting a pic of the handles on those?

Hi

Have that knowledge to know that the damast is 100% OK

Wonder of the otherpart of the dagger - the blade is ok not need to ask about that

In the forum your wrong about 2 thing

1: SS Honnor dagger are made in 2 Version , One early with ornameted scabbard and one as seen on internet a later with non ornamented scabbard - both made by Eickhorn (Maiden Hair Damast)

2: The SS Runes in a Circle - Yes i seen in on stuff from WW not on blade but why not
it was on the inner lid to the case that was made for first version of the SS Honor Dagger

Are more in to that this might be a SS Presentation dagger - Muller made that kind of dagger , time for making dont know

Collecting daggers 20 Years ago - but not anymore just run on this - and buyed it for the blade that i know are right

Best Regards
Pär

Oh yes, I remeber these fakes when they were first produced. They are nice for display but certainly not real. Probably still worth a few hundered dollars.

Gailen

It is not only about the runes in a circle, these are GOLDEN runes. When you love this dagger/blade then be happy with it, I would't.

It should be mentioned that there are a couple of exceptions to the Eickhorn TM on all original honor daggers rule-- and there almost always is--an exception to the rule.
In Tom Johmson's new table top book on daggers there is a special presentation SA honor dagger by Horster. The names on the blade were removed before it was surrendered.
This one of a kind special dagger was in the famous Bob Moses collection and later in the also famous Dr. Ron Distelhorst collection. While I did not own it I had it in my custody for a few days and it is 100% right. Its worth buying the book just to see it.

I think I remember that dagger. Believe I saw it at the first Max Show in St. Louis when Bob Moses owned it. No question it was original.

Gailen David

Hi

Would that mean that it possibly could be an orginal ?

Have looked caryfully on the net , and in books and did not find a digger like the one on picture that i show in this thread

Regards
Pär Lundqvist
Sweden

No! It is not an original! That's final.

Gailen David

This is again were people should buy good books and really research what they collect. I imported the book Damascus Steel by Manfred Sachse he is known as the modern Godfather of german damascus. I imported the last of the english translation at great cost.. This book is great!!! He knew these people, Muller Wester Dinger... In the book he says ECHT DAMAST P MULLER is postwar... The book is always for sale on e-bay or as a premium I could list in the for sale section... Come on buy good books it gets a little old when the same questions come up on the forum Regards: Jim

Oh Ya the 1st MAX was a blast bought some great damascus Imperials there !!

Agreed, no one wants to buy books anymore. They just want free advise after the fact.

Gailen David

here is another to concider

Jim and Gailen are right on! Not long ago I made mention somewhere on the forum that if these guys would buy some good reference material, stupid and costly mistakes can and will be avoided ! But some joker said that all the books in the world didn't mean a hill of beans! Obviously he must be illiterate !

Perl,

Believe Houston,Gailen and DAMAST when they state, "it's not original". These guys have been in this hobby a very long long time! And share their advice freely. It's a well known fact that a "genuine" damas blade with the mark ETCH DAMAST P. MULLER is a post war made blade.

Houston, Just to clarify. IYO, are the "blades" shown by Craig, 2nd picture and by Perl, made by Muller. Of course if genuine post war, or out right fake/repro? Thanks.

Damast,
Nice damas letter openers. I agree with you, these were made since the early 1900's and made post war. And like most things due to the hardships of the early post war years were traded for the necessities of life... I wouldn't care when these guys made these terrific damas blades. They still made them and I would love to own them. I also agree some damas blades have flaws.
Thanks for showing them.

Just would like to add that IMO, yes these guys made some great damas blades and were very talented no doubt and good at what they did, but we do have some very talented damas makers out there that make stuff that these old timers could only dream about...

Yes, I agree today some smiths make fantastic stuff. Some smiths have modern machines on there side. Some use wire EDM machines to cut patterns such as names etc.. in the steel. Allso using many different alloys stainless,cpm,nickel.. So in the pattern of the steel after forging there is a name in the pattern... Pretty wild stuff. Pick up a (Blade) magazine and it is all there. Regards: Jim

The ss dagger above is allso etched to look like damascus.

Once you've hands on examined a couple of couple of SS/SA Leaders Daggers. Shouldn't be a problem. Pictures do not count.

Gailen David

whos the Colleauge?

Agree with Damast.The SS above is etched.
Seiler (Yank in UK)