UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Acquired a rare SS dagger. Authenticity Check?

Hello all,
At a gunshow in my area, I picked up an S.S. Dagger made by Paul Muler, (Marked P. Muler on the blade) with a damascus blade. It has the gold lettering and everything that you should see on those daggers. I paid about $1000 for it, which should be an extremely low number if it's authentic. I couldn't find anything exactly like it in a booklet that I have. It doesn't have the grooves around the outer edges of the scabbord which is typical of these S.S. Honour Daggers, but the scabbord is covered with leather. Another thing that is odd, is that the ball at the tip of the scabbard is not magnetic. On my SA dagger, the same ball at the tip of the scabbard is magnetic. It appears to be made out of aluminium on the ball. It is dented slightly, so I don't think it's plastic. All of the other metal on the scabbord is magnetic.

If I can get my camera working, I might take a picture, but this is the best I can do right now.

Thanks,
BladeCat

Don't want to sound pessimistic but it is probably a repro. If not, well, let's just say that you've got yourself the deal of the century.

If original, if would probably be an SS Honor dagger and would be worth at least 70,000 $USD and up, depending on its condition.

If you would, please send me a picture or six.

Thanks,

Dave

dave@germandaggers.com

Here is the Dagger.




Close up of words on blade.


Damascus


More close ups












Stripped










Scabbard





Frontal Ball on Tip of Scabbard


So, what do you guys think?

I am definitely no expert on these rare daggers. Craig owns two of them, maybe he will chime in.

Do SS Honor Daggers have SS runes on the back? The shape of the blade seems fat towards the tip, others look like they taper more to a point, but it could be the angle of the photo.

The scabbard fittings on Craig's daggers have the grooves as you mentioned.

The blade could be real damascus, but I don't really know.

Here is a picture of one of Craig's daggers from his site in the gallery section. The picture is his property.

I would ask for a return of my money.Too many red flags for me and I'm also no expert on an "Honor Dagger".The price alone would be the #1.

Should be a panel on the upper and lower fittings.And looks like the leather goes under the fittings,which it should not.IMO,Paul

Absolutely, positively post war item.

Dagger that is. The scabbard could be an embelished period item.

JR,

Do you remember about two years ago (it was right around Christmas of 2003 I believe) someone uncovered a real SS Honor dagger from King of Prussia PA at a flea market.

The fellow who posted the photos and the story did not acquire it, a friend of his did. The GDC member told him to how to take the tang nut off and to check the tang for a serial #, which was there.

So, I believe all SS Honor daggers must also have that serial # on the tang.

He then posted numerous photos, and sure enough, it was an out of the woodwork authentic SS Honor dagger that the guy purchased for $1500.

Does anyone remember the name of that thread, or can they post the link if it wasn't deleted?

Greg,
I posted the photos for the guy but no longer have the photos on my computer.

Was this the thread you were thinking of?
Honor Dagger Thread

Total fabrication!!! Absolutely bad.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

quote:

Originally posted by Börse:
JR,

Do you remember about two years ago (it was right around Christmas of 2003 I believe) someone uncovered a real SS Honor dagger from King of Prussia PA at a flea market.

The fellow who posted the photos and the story did not acquire it, a friend of his did. The GDC member told him to how to take the tang nut off and to check the tang for a serial #, which was there.

So, I believe all SS Honor daggers must also have that serial # on the tang.

He then posted numerous photos, and sure enough, it was an out of the woodwork authentic SS Honor dagger that the guy purchased for $1500.

Does anyone remember the name of that thread, or can they post the link if it wasn't deleted?

I was a lurker for years before being active. Are you referring to this thread?

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/728099473/m/7423099267/p/1

That was an unbelievable Christmas story and what dreams are made of. What is the latest on that dagger, any how ?

About ten tyrs. ago on L.I.N.Y.a club member walked into an antique shop.A fellow was trying to sell a dagger and the shop owner was not interested.My friend asked to see the dagger and is told "the blade is scratched and the leather rotted off the scabbard."He buys it for $65.00 and not being a dagger guy brings it to a meeting.Well he had a very poor shape SA Honor Dagger minus the chain.The scratches were the Damas blade.The original owners name is etched on the back of the scabbard.He go's to a gun show and finds a book on High Leaders but the book is sealed in plastic he tells the seller he will buy the book if the name is in it.Well the person is in it and has a bio. in the book.The blade was ground(someone tried to sharpen it) ,leather gone and chain missing but what a piece of history in any condition.
P.S. he go's to a flea market 2 mo. later see's a chain sticking out of the junk a seller is unloading and picks up a NSKK Chain Leader for $200.
It's out there I'm not finding it but some are.

About the taper of the blade.... do SS and SA daggers have the same Taper? Is it possible that a custom blade may have a different taper?

quote:

Originally posted by Ronald Weinand:
Total fabrication!!! Absolutely bad.

Could you tell me what inconsistencies you specifically notice?

Mr. Weinand and JR are both right. It is a fake.

Just for starters, the fit is horrible. Not the quality you'd expect from a real Honor dagger. Crossguards are wrong.

It is a nice filler piece though.

These blades are well known reproductions from the late 1960s. Carstens was the maker and used original equipment from Mueller to make them. Atwood had a hand in this as I remember. Maybe Houston can comment.
Also, the nick in the leather cover on the scabbard shows the type of leather, not like the original German leather.
Next, the scabbard is a standard SA type with the added leather covering.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Charlie / sdp / JR,

Yup--that was the thread. JR poised a good question--whatever happened to that dagger?

I know it all made us dream of flea markets in our sleep.

BladeCat--don't feel too bad about it being a repro. Even fine quality repros can have value. If the blade is real damascus and it was manufactured using Herr Muller's tooling, then that would give it some value. What the dollar figure is, I don't know.

Craig Gottlieb is releasing a new book on reproductions very soon. I predict that the release of this book will generate interest in some quality reproductions, and will spark in interest in collecting them. I really do.

Pic1: This is a similiar high quality reproduction that was included in a collection I bought several years ago.

If you compare the crossguards on mine to an original honor dagger you'll see that the oak leaves are more convincing on these crossguards:
Note that the 2nd set of leaves are sharply kicked up as on the original example shown above by Borse:

Pic3: Even as a reproduction these make a nice display piece and I personally don't think $1,000 is out of line for one. How many of you would be willing to leave a $50,000 original out on display where anyone can pick it up?

There's an original available on this website:

http://www.thirdreichdepot.com/

The asking price is $85000.00.

Thanks guys, for the information!

SS-Honor Dagger with Damstblade made by Paul Müller

http://www.milshop.de/ Klaus Schwaiger

- Highlights-

-
The price is 23125,-$

some "interesting" daggers on that site..

Hello, I am now auctioning off this blade.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=44674811

Just thought I'd tell anyone who might be interested.

If this isn't the appropriate place on this forum for this, I appologize, and I will move it to the correct location.

Robert Kürten acquired Paul Müller's trademarks and made genuine damascus blades post-war. Could this be one of them?
Monty

Hi Everyone,The SS Honour dagger forsale on the
http://www.milshop.de/ the blade is made by Paul Dinger, of WeDi fame, Regards nats

http://www.stan-the-man.tk

The person who won the auction decided to back out (as far as I can tell). If the first bidder is still interested, they can get it at the price which they had bid for it. ( I can't seem to contact the first bidder through GunBroker) military13@charter.net

Those daggers were common in the 60's-sold by Atwood and his dealers. Compared to the real thing-they are junk and there were never any real ones with the P Muller name on the blade.

Here's the story on the SS Honor Dagger that popped up in December. I flew out to buy it, and it ended up costing too much for me, due in part to the fact that I had two at the time already (JR can confirm this). So, I ended up getting a nice finder's fee, and picking it up for a friend of mine that night. Incidentally, the dagger shown is in fact a reproduction.