UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum SS Officers sword

Can anyone please let me know what the going price is for a exc cond Officers with knot ?
I had 1 dissappear on me over the weekend and insurance wants to know.I paid 1500 for it 10 yrs ago and cant seem to find Prices anywhere.Thanks for any help

Early?Late?,maker marked?,unmarked? There's a whole lot of factors that enter into this besides condition.
Jim

Did they get the TENO-em too?

quote:

Originally posted by Serge (aka Wagner):
Did they get the TENO-em too?

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !

Except for the Dachau type, $9,000 to $11,000.

The type of knot could have a bearing on the value, too. Was it the silver knot with runes on the stem or another type? Was it authentic?

except or expect? For my view the Dachau ones are the ones with lowest value. The early birds are the ones with the higher value.

The Dachau swords are crap. I meant the early no maker or possibly a Krebs marked one. One in not too good condition sells for $9,000. Close to mint with a knot is in the $11,000 range.

PS - now all you collectors with the Dachau model don't get too annoyed with me. It'a just a fact. They are not that desirable.

I agree the Dachau types are more or less at the bottom of the desirability scale, but they are "legitimate" swords. For some, they are the only affordable SS officer sword. For others, they are a variant to add to their collection of other swords. They probably were awarded mostly to W-SS and other military SS officers. If you can only have one and have the funds, go for an earlier sword. However, I don't think there should be any "shame" or embarassment associated with owning a Dachau type.

This is essentially the same position I've taken on RZM daggers which many look down upon. These are still examples of legitimate 3rd Reich regalia and have a rightful place in a collection.
The Dachau sword in my collection doesn't exhibit much in the line of quality construction but it's still a legit. SS sword example.
Jim

The Dachau degens are not crap and do not deserve that reputation. I believe this misinformation comes from the fact that when the soldiers entered the forge they put some degens together with parts on hand. Some of these do not fit the scabbards and some hilts are ill-fitted as well. The ones that were issued fit together great and are things of beauty.

Hi Guys!
I have sold many SS officer swords over the last few years. I have to say that the late Dachau type are really crap. However, the PMD marked ones are really very special and of very high quality. In fact, they sell for close to what the early ones sell for.
Best Wishes,
Bob

I think that's a fair differentiation here Bob and I certainly would agree. The example I show above with the two nice earlier models is NOT a PMD example.
Jim.

RFI, what do you mean by crap?

Dachau types represent a much later time period than the early heavier, silver/nickle type. The Dachau types are thinner and lighter weight pieces. All one has to do is get the two types together side by side for a comparison. When I say 'crap', I mean not only a physical comparison BUT the time period represented. An earlier sword has existed thru much more history. Isn't that a very important consideration when owning a relic? Would you rather have an item made in 1936 or 1944? Why are early items in almost every catagory of Third Reich collectibles more desireable than later made ones. This goes for helmets, medals, daggers, etc.
When I said 'crap' I was talking as much about the age as the actual materials/workmanship involved.

It is an inanimate object. The year it was made has nothing to due with it's historical value. Quality of the item is another matter and does add value.

quote:

Originally posted by Serge (aka Wagner):
Did they get the TENO-em too?

Serge yep the got that also along with 2 SS Armbands and a Diplo arm band. It was the silver knot with the SS on it but I think the knot may have been a repro.

Hi Jim!
Where are the pics of your sword Jim, I would love to see it. I have not seen one in a while and could use a "fix"!
Thanks!
Bob

Hi Bob:
This sword came with some other stuff and is the bottom one in this picture. The pommel nut was gone when I got it and the guard looked like a pretzel. There is no buffer pad and the blade is rough even for one of the late Dachau examples i.e no trace of plating left if it ever had it. The guard is magnetic and there's no burnishing in the scabbard fittings.

Zorro - when pertaining to Third Reich items, the year it was made has everything to do with historical value. What do you think 'historical value' means???? Wouldn't an SA dagger that existed during the Rohm era and the early SA street fighting hold more value historically than an SA dagger made in 1942???
Apply that to SS swords. An early 'no maker' has been thru years of SS history, as opposed to a late made Dachau sword. Which would be more desirable if both were in excellent condition?

If those swords could talk,well they can't.

Thanks Jim, they are truly objects of beauty?!
Best Wishes,
Bob

I like 'em all. You could argue the Dachau swords have more poignant history because they were made and issued during the war years. They were awarded to many, no doubt, who were military heroes of the Reich. Although some early SS members, including sword recipients, also served in the military, most were too old to hold positions other than those that involved training, support, security, etc. If you are looking purely at the origins and early history of the SS, with its mysticism, symbolism, etc., the earlier swords hold a certain charm. I don't think most would argue against most earlier swords being vastly superior in design, workmanship and materials. But the Dachau swords were made at the SS forge, set up explicitly to produce them. Muller, who ran the place, was one of the foremost damastsmiths of his day and pioneered the use of stainless steel in German edged weapons. I think each type should be appreciated and enjoyed for what it is. They each represent distinct periods and aspects of SS edged weapon history.

Calling Dachau swords 'crap' is a little hard on collectors with limited budgets, they hold as much historical importance as any other TR Relic inasmuch as they were awarded to SS officers during the period, maybe some collectors who take pleasure in hoarding all the early 'good' ones considered letting a few go into the general market then there might not be a shortage that forces new collectors into having to own the 'crappy' ones.

Each to their own in the collecting world and one thing I can't stand is a collecting snob.

Nolan

Sorry to all those I've offended. Cased closed. I'm out of this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by jim m:
Early?Late?,maker marked?,unmarked? There's a whole lot of factors that enter into this besides condition.
Jim

It was an Eickhorn and the lower hilt had the stamping but the scabbard didnt.And I have pics somewhere But I cant find them.It was the silver knot but I'm not sure if it was real.
Thanks

If it is an SS officer sword with runes on the grip and made by Eickhorn, the sword is in an area of considerable controvery and debate. Without going into great detail, "maker mark" swords, other than Krebs and PMD, are generally looked upon with great skepticism. The reason is that a police officer sword is easily converted to an SS sword with the change of the grip, real or repro. This is due to the construction of police swords, as opposed to that of early SS swords. Some, however, believe there are "legitimate" examples of such swords.

I agree with Grumpy here.
An SS officers degen by anyone other than the two recognized makers would be a tough sell.
However even at this date things here-to-for unknown do turn up as evidenced by a Klittermann and Moog police sword a few years ago. They were unknown as a maker of these when T Wittmann wrote his SS book and quite a surprise when I told him about it.
Jim

I tend to believe that "other maker" SS swords from the period do exist. I have seen several in person that looked authentic to my eye. One "WKC" in particular was in pretty poor condition throughout, including the grip. All components were "real" and matched in condition, with much patina. There was no indication of disassembly and the parts appeared to be "melded" together. If they are authentic, there don't seem to be many around, leading me to believe they were produced in very limited numbers. If such occurred, it would have been for an extremely brief period between the earlier types and the "Dachau" types. I don't know what the regulations were in regard to obtaining an SS officer grip only. If they could be obtained by SS degen holders, the explanation may have been an SS member converting his police sword to what appeared to be an SS example for everday wear, parade use, etc., without risking damage to his honor sword. A non-police member may have been able to buy a police sword for the same purpose. This is all speculation, of course. In any case, it would be difficult, if not impossible, to establish that an "other maker" degen is not a converted police sword, whether done during the period or afterward.

Interesting speculation Grumpy. I doubt if we'll ever get all of this properly sorted out but someone converting a police sword to SS configuration? SS honor degens were awarded,at as far as I know at no cost to the officer, so what would have been the motivation to do a conversion?
I think it's fairly well accepted that Model 33 daggers were converted/upgraded to Model 36s as a cost saving measure. but I don't see any cost saving in converting a police sword to an SS honor degen during the 3rd Reich. Am I missing something here?
Jim

As far as I know there was never an established program to convert the M 1933 daggers to the M 1936 pattern. I have never seen a SS-Kleiderkasse listing for a complete M 1936 scabbard much less a set of chain links, or the center mount as parts.

But there is a listing for the SS Degen itself (as a replacement with the proper paperwork for the award). At an estimated 20% premium over the cost of a standard Police (Leader’s) Degen. FP

All speculative, Jim. Motivation? As noted, to safely put your awarded degen away or place it in a place of honor in the home, etc., while using your converted sword for official wear at ceremonies, duty, etc. That may be why so many early SS degens are found in nice condition when compared to many police swords. Similar to putting away your "Himmler" dagger and wearing another. That is probably why so many "Himmler's" are found in nice condition. We likely will never know for certain.

Unfortunately Grumpy we don't have a time capsule and can't go back so this whole area is by nature speculative. Interesting thoughts on your part and I agree there is motivation to keep an award in pristine condition but I don't think we'll ever know exactly what happened for sure.
Jim