UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum SA engraved weddinggift!

Have a look at this beauty.

I'm posting this for a fellow collector in Norway.

SA dagger by August Bickel w/vertical hanger and wedding engraving.

Upper crossguard: Otto Roth
Lower cg: Zur hochzeit am 1.10 1938 Sa Sturm 23/224

Roughly translated: for wedding on 1.10 1938 Sa sturm 23/224

Maybe it was given to him by his wife???

Since we have both the name and the Sa sturm-numbers there should be a way to find out more about the recipient.

Can anyone help us out here?

.

..

...

....

,

,,

,,,

,.

Nice dagger.
I know where it is
Thats a real beauty. The vertikal hangar is great and rare too.

Lh 600

Wow, that is a great find and a wonderful dagger-excellent!!! Mike

Indeed it is.

Does anyone have any idea how we can find out more about Otto Roth?

Bismarck !
This SA i belive came from the USA earlier some years ago. I think the pre owner can tell more if he is here on the forum.

Best Regards LH 600

Bismarck, that is an awsome dagger
Good luck with the research !
Best, Hakan

verry nice !!!!!!!!!!!!

Hans

Very nice! What is the group marking? There are a few Standarte 224's in different areas. With the group known, you might be able to have Mike Constable/Westmoreland Research or Rob McDivett (although Mike has found me great SA files that weren't found by other researchers) find the man's file. Or, you could check the public records of the town where he was married to see what you can find there.
Erich

I've sent a request to the owner asking for a pic of the other side of the lower cg.

OH BOY !!!!!!!!! WHAT A STUNNING DAGGER.
SEAN

Thats a great looking dagger. But is it possible that somewhere over time someone has taken off the cross guards and put them on backwards so that the text is on the front of the dagger? I remember something about them having a rule that the dagger could not be altered in such a way that it would be visible when being hung in wear. I have a dagger with a guard inscription but its on the back of the dagger.

You could be right on this, but then again the crossguards must have been turned around allready back then since the Gau-stamp normally is on the reverse side, if you see what I mean?

I really can't see the Gau mark in the pictures. But if that is an interesting point. Maybe as a gift it was never meant to be worn,and they engraved the front?

Guess we will find out when I get the pic of the other side from the owner.

Ya no biggy! It's still a great piece. I love the name on the guard. Are you planning on buying this? Whats the asking price?

Believe me I've tried, but there's now way he's selling this.

Two more pics of the lower crossguard.

Gau-marked Mi.

I checked my listings, and I don't find a Standarte 224 in the Mitte group. That's not a major concern, because through the years SA Standarten were added, amalgamated, reclassified into a different group, etc. Since this is an early dagger with a late dedication, it's also possible that Otto had been in SA group Mitte in 33/34/35 and moved to another area, so transferred to another Standarte/group.
The writing of SA as "Sa" rather than "SA" or "S.A" or "SA." is somewhat unusual.
Finally, I believe the regulations indicated that an addition/engraving, etc. to an SA dagger was to be done in such a way so as to not change the appearance of the dagger. This is somewhat ambiguous and, since from a short distance the lettering can't really be seen, it would likely not have caused any raised eyebrows.
Most likely some members of his Sturm got together and had the dedication done as part of Otto's wedding present. I think I've seen this piece or photos in the somewhat distant past--the name sounds familiar to me.
Erich

Thanks a lot Erich.
That's the kind of info were looking for.
If anyone else want's to contribute here they're more than welcome.

I had a Citation for the DKiS signed by
Keitel to an SS Sturmbannfuhrer Otto Roth.
Subsequently found to have never existed...
Name and Doc fake.
Seiler (yank in UK)

Well, I find it rather hard to believe that someone would fake an inscription like this. I cant really see that there would be anything to gain on that.

Not to rain on your parade ,BUT stranger things have happened.
If you do a Search you will find several threads
on spurious engravings on swords and daggers that have created great argument.
Seiler (yank in UK)

I wouldn't worry about it being done as an enhancement--wedding inscriptions are not uncommon (relatively speaking) and this one is well done with a period style typeface. Close examination with high power magnification would help to verify whether or not there are any major problems with the engraving.
Erich

Seiler is right about that! Their would be plenty to gain with a fabrication on a dagger.
Basically you have a descent SA worth somewhere around $800-$1000 BUT you turn it into a presentation wedding dagger and now it's worth $3500- $4500 by some enterprising hustler ! Look at all these SS daggers popping up that are serial#d, Doesen't that make you wonder ! You could have all the Letter and # stamps with the correct font styles made to your Specifications if you wanted to. Just the fact that Seiler has this same guy on a document that never existed says the dagger is highly suspect !

PS,
The gents who could find NO TRACE of my Otto Roth were our own Bernie Brule and Mark Yerger
(Mark did the book on SS & Police DKiS holders)
I think even Rob McDiv had a crack.
Seiler

Well there you have it. And those guys know thier stuff !

Anything's possible, however there could also have been more than one Otto Roth!
It's great that so many find this thread interesting, but untill someone can say for sure or even better prove that this was done post-war it remains original. At least to me and the owner.

I wouldn't worry about it. First of all, Bernie and Mark were researching an SS member rather than an SA member. The SA files are not mixed with SS files in the National Archives or German archives. Plus,it's possible that they were checking DAs instead, in which case it's even possible that there was an SS member Otto Roth, as not every person attached to the SS was in the DA. I agree with Trond, that there is no reason to suspect the piece is fake just because earlier research for an SS Otto Roth turned up nothing.
Erich

Google Otto Roth and you get 14500 links happy reading!!!

I ususally don't post here in the SA forum, but I can affirm that this dagger has had this dedication for atleast the 15+ years it has been in Norway.
This dagger came from Germany in the mid-90's, and the vertical hanger was added to it by a previous owner in Norway.

Best regards,

With all due respect to the names mentioned, dont give up on finding this name and confirming the authenticity of the unit etc, until you have had Dr Martin Schuster research the Bundesarchiv SA files. Martin is a German historian whose Ph.D. was on the Berlin Brandenburg SA and knows his way around the relevant files and period sources. I have working with Martin in the past.