UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum SS Runes button question

On my early sword the threads of the pommel cap are on the inside, not the outside. There is no "step fitting." It would impossible to screw the pommel on if it had a cap. As mentioned earlier, it goes together like a police sword, except there are two nuts that screw down to "seat" the grip on the handguard before the pommel is attached. There is a "sunken" area for the button and it attaches to the sunken wire by two clips in the back. Also, as mentioned earlier, there is no hole in the tang for the "hairpin" attachment. Obviously, such is not needed. I know of no way to test a sword with a tang cap to see if the button is wired through the tang, short of prying the cap off and attempting to slide the grip off. If it doesn't budge, it likely is a "pin-through" type. I understand the grip may be forced off with enough pressure, ripping the pins through the tang hole. This can destroy a grip and, at the very least, mutilate the grip and the tang cap. Again, if there is a tang cap, it is highly probable the button is pinned through. The cap may be there to help "seat" the pommel, or to discourage someone from going further in attempting to remove the grip.

If you look at the photos of Dean's sword in the "For Sale" section, it does not appear to have a separate "step" fitting. Since he bought this sword from Wittmann, I would think TW gave it his blessing. As far as appearance, Dean's appears identical to mine.

Dean and Grumpy,

May I ask if the lower fitting on your scabbards are pressed on or are there screws holding the fitting in place?

John

Mine is pressed on. The hilt and top scabbard fitting are "proof-marked." One correction: There is a built-in "step" fitting. It is not separate, as found on the "capped tang" type.

quote:

Dean and Grumpy,

May I ask if the lower fitting on your scabbards are pressed on or are there screws holding the fitting in place?

John

John:
I have seen both pressed on and screwed on lower scabbard fittings (drags)on SS degans and I believe both are correct. I have also discussed this with some of the major dealers/collectors and while they believe that the pressed on scabbard fitting is more appropriate they've all seen both on unquestionably original swords.
Jim

Apreciate all the great responses.
John- Bottom scabbard fitting is pressed on (no screws).

I agree with Jim about the scabbard screws. However, I suspect the very early swords tend to have a pressed-on drag. My other "early" sword has screws in the drag. The ferrule is magnetic, while the other hilt fittings are nickel-silver. The scabbard fittings are also magnetic. The sword is the capped tang type and there is no evidence of tampering. It has no maker mark and the ricasso has strange markings consisting of three stamped dots over one stamped dot, or vice versa. I suppose this represents 31 or 13, but who knows? My guess is that this sword was made about the time the police degens were coming in and the nickel-silver parts were being depleted.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy:
As earlier mentioned, I acquired an early sword similar to Dean's, at least externally. I have no idea what Dean's looks like under the grip. My sword was acquired from the vet's daughter and has never been cleaned, based on its appearance. All hilt and scabbard fittings are nickel-silver, including the screws. The top of the tang has no cap. The pommel screws down on the tang like most police swords. There is no hole in the tang to accomodate the "pin through" SS button, as commonly seen on early SS officer swords. The button is attached to the grip wires by two clips on the back of the button. The sword came complete with a short SS portepee with a 1935 dated cloth tag. It also has initials engraved on the top of the pommel cap, which are attributed to an early SS officer, who rose to high rank. I am only reporting what my degen looks like under the grip. I have a second one with the tang cap (no maker). I only know what I see on the first degen mentioned. It is real and it is made the way it is. I cannot explain further, other than to note this degen is of very early manufacture with the Krebs "police badge" logo and "squarish" handguard. I would speculate the tang cap may have been added to production early on in order to prevent the removing of the grip without damage, for reasons only known to the SS at the time. If you have further questions, I'll be happy to reply. I hope this information is of help.

Hello Grumpy,

very good thesis.You are deep in this subject,thanks.

Hello John,

i have 4 Leader Degens,all early and all with stepped nut and all with cap.Yours are with stepped nut too,when i look correct!Deans sword ist with built on configuaration .
As earlier written : i have in my archive pics from a built on sword too,and there are missing the cap too,similar as Grumpys sword.Now we have three built on swords and all three without the cap.Is this accidentally,or is this the serie on this configuration ?!
Perhaps here are more opinions,because Robert H. and JR can talk to us with expierence.
Great discussion here.

quote:

Originally posted by John Pepera:

Out of curiosity, how would one determine how the runes button is attached to the handle with out opening the sword and removing the handle? (I am too much the purist and not brave enough to venture therein!)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dblmed:
For checking the Rune's Emblem mode of attachment, I have found that the safest & most reliable method is to X-Ray the grip from a couple of angles - almost always shows the type of metal (or lack of) attachment.

Also consider there where different ways to get the Degen awarded in or outside of the Junkerschulen. Maybe this shows the differences.
Didn't all Degen getting assembled from company Gahr in Munich? So far I discovered very early Degen without the cap and known Junkerschule awarded Degen with the cap. I still wonder Thomas W. didn't went deeper into this matter in his book, but I assume it is about the lack of period informations. And this missing info will keep us still wondering.

Please share some X rays. As I said before the two prong style and nail style I discoevered so far.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert H.:
Also consider there where different ways to get the Degen awarded in or outside of the Junkerschulen. Maybe this shows the differences.
Didn't all Degen getting assembled from company Gahr in Munich? So far I discovered very early Degen without the cap and known Junkerschule awarded Degen with the cap. I still wonder Thomas W. didn't went deeper into this matter in his book, but I assume it is about the lack of period informations. And this missing info will keep us still wondering.

Please share some X rays. As I said before the two prong style and nail style I discoevered so far.

Perhaps the built-in step/ no cap degen was simply a very early limited initially produced degen. Seems like the step fitting/ with cap degens are an improved design version. I know TW's book chronologically places them the other way around, but hey you never know?

I suspect the built-in step went both ways - the very early type, reappearing on some later police swords and perhaps a small number of SS swords. Mine was presented, I'm sure, to an "old guard" SS officer (born in 1899), whose initials are beautifully engraved on the pommel cap. He also received the honor ring and Blood Order. Although it may sound self-serving, I can only conclude the early "no cap" examples were presented by Himmler to loyal SS officers who had proven themselves as dedicated SS members and had been members for some time. We likely will never know exactly when or why the assembly design was changed. It would appear the purpose of the later design was to discourage or prevent the disassemby of the hilt, particularly the removal of the grip. Perhaps the change took place when the police swords were being designed or upon their manufacture.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy:
I suspect the built-in step went both ways - the very early type, reappearing on some later police swords and perhaps a small number of SS swords. Mine was presented, I'm sure, to an "old guard" SS officer (born in 1899), whose initials are beautifully engraved on the pommel cap. He also received the honor ring and Blood Order. Although it may sound self-serving, I can only conclude the early "no cap" examples were presented by Himmler to loyal SS officers who had proven themselves as dedicated SS members and had been members for some time. We likely will never know exactly when or why the assembly design was changed. It would appear the purpose of the later design was to discourage or prevent the disassemby of the hilt, particularly the removal of the grip. Perhaps the change took place when the police swords were being designed or upon their manufacture.

Boy, I wish there was some way to tell. It's all so fascinating. Just as a note I was looking at the examples in TW's book. Three built-in step degens that belonged to old-guard officers. P362-363, 384, and 369. You may have a good point Grumpy.

Another odd aspect to all of this is the later "Dachau" swords. They were, of course, manufactured under direct control and supervision of the SS. Yet, the hilts are like the police sword hilts. No effort was made to prevent their disassembly. Perhaps the earlier SS administrators were more stringent and indoctrinated in preserving the integrity and mystique of the organization.

Another interesting idea is the combination of Robert H's idea of considering alternative ways the degen could be awarded and the combination of what have said Grumpy about old fighters, also to what seems to be a larger number of step fitting degens, it could be that both versions ran simultaneously and were distributed depending on who was the recipient. This might also explain the designs re-appearance with the police degen. Symbolizing some sort of award critera for each version. Of course, this is all a fanciful food for thought.

The question is raised whther the early "no cap" degens all have the "police badge" trademark and the "capped tang" varieties all have the later "shield" trademark (those that carry a trademark).

For starters mine is a solid nickel built in step with "police badge" lobster mm

Heres a few pictures from Germaniainternational's site showing what appears to be the early type Krebs ss with squared D-gaurd worn by old guards.
Anyone have any photos of a low ranking ss officer wearing one of these?

Photo #2

quote:

Originally posted by Robert H.:
Didn't all Degen getting assembled from company Gahr in Munich?

Robert H.-
Can you go into this comment a little more?
It's the first I've heard of this.

Thanks to all who have posted their comments and obsevations.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy: Mine was presented, I'm sure, to an "old guard" SS officer (born in 1899), whose initials are beautifully engraved on the pommel cap. He also received the honor ring and Blood Order. Although it may sound self-serving, I can only conclude the early "no cap" examples were presented by Himmler to loyal SS officers who had proven themselves as dedicated SS members and had been members for some time.

Along those lines of thought, here's part of a paragraph in Wittmann's ss book on page 343 stating:
"According to the noted 3rd Reich researcher, Andrew Mollo, the Ehrendegen was introduced in 1935. It is possible the degen was designed and authorized by Himmler late in 1935, but it was not actually produced and distributed until early 1936. Mollo further states the SS degen was initially awarded to battallion commanders and above in the SS-Verfugungstruppen(SS-VT),to SS Standartenfuhrer and above in the Allgemeine-SS, and to departmental heads in the SS-Hauptamer(SS Main Office)."

The Degen was awarded before 1936,for sure.The first awarded degen i know was in September 1935.

SS Degens (complete or partly I don't know) where getting assambled or produced from the Gahr company. Reference "Die Silberschmiede der NSDAP und der SS".

Robert
Thanks for the reply.
Thats news to me.
Is the reference your referring to a period book or magazine?
Is it possible that Gahr supplied the fittings to the blade manufacturer?

Wittmann's ss book mentions on page 509 the Birthday Honor swords had silver hilt and scabbard fittings made by Gahr.

An some of this hilts of the silver birthday degen look very similar to the standard built-in step...

To add to the discussion of the SS Officer's Degen, I offer just a couple of items. It's been my experience that most early degen configurations that had the simulated step fitting, were Krebs marked pieces. And more often we see the "unmarked" early all nickel SS degen, with the actual step fitting that screwed in to the upper ferrule section.



We see at least 3 different grip fastening systems with the SS Officers Sword. The protective cap variety, the double lock nut to tang configuration, and lastly the pommel screwed directly to the tang method. All can be correct, and I've even seen 2 different configurations of the pommel screwed tangs.

Even with the early manufactured swords, we sometimes find a combination of steel & nickel fittings. And even to the point of often seeing the runic button comprised of aluminum when the rest of the hilt being made of nickel. While not inspecting any first hand, there are examples of the 1st degens being made of silver fittings which as you would imagine would be quite rare. Even on the early swords that are all nickel, you sometimes can notice a difference in coloration of the pommel from the rest of the fittings. Probably due to perhaps a higher nickel content. And on the Muller SS Officers swords we most often find un-plated steel pommels.


We find unaltered SS Officer Degens scabbards with both pressed fitting and the screwed on fittings. Both are correct and for that matter we find Police Office degens that didn't start production until a full 2 years after the introduction of the SS Officer's sword, with press on fittings. The Krebs Police swords are one example.

We find both Krebs trademarks on early SS Officer's Degens that were manufactured in nickel. While one trademark was used before the other, it doesn't necessarily define the sword as being early or late. The components of the degen will most likely show that.


While only 4 maker of the SS Officer's degen are listed, most certainly in my opinion, there is the possibility of other makers of the sword, especially during the 38-41 period.

Sorry for the long winded post.

Fantastic Degen.

quote:

While not inspecting any first hand, there are examples of the 1st degens being made of silver fittings which as you would imagine would be quite rare.

Thanks for contributing JR.

So to your knowledge there are examples,other than the Birthday Honor Swords,that have the Gahr produced silver fittings throughout?

Indeed the standard SS Officer's degen on rare occurances did come with silver fittings, Dean........ Brian Maederer is offering one currently I believe. I'm not sure that the fittings are Gahr specifically, but none the less in silver.