UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum SS 1933 - good?

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by zorro:
10mm is only .040 of an inch./QUOTE]

No it isn't

Nolan

Hello Dennys,
Your dagger is correct and proper as issued.
I concure with Grumpy and Red.

Made in late 1936 to early 1937.
Red is correct that is a 1936 Mod.-SS blade. These are also correct and as issued with this scarce little known 33 variation that also exibits no district stamp on the crossguard. Hense it's not a ground Rohm. Also has the correct anodized scabbard all fittings are nickel.

You can take this dagger and slide it into an early nickel 36 chained and it would be "proper" also.

This type is harder to find than a chained ss anyday and is missing from most collections because even many SS collectors don't know they are missing this seldom encountered transitional variant.

And as to your question about rarity: It all depends on who you ask.

Hope this helps although I think it will bring up more questions but that's what a forum is about.

Regards,
-serge-

I wish I had seen this thread earlier. I would has suggested that you DO NOT TAKE IT APART!

There is nothing wrong with it and it's never been apart and nothing futher will be known with it disassembled!

Dennys this is not directed at you because you don't know better...you were just following a suggestion.

Regards,
-serge-

Hello Serge.
Thank you very much for your comments and HONESTY!
I knew this dagger was more rare than any SS Chained. I already recieved some e-mails for selling it. However I do not have any intention to sell. This dagger was a gift from this account, my friend, so zero cost!
I am very glad I have something good.
I understand your point of view about taking appart this dagger. At least I was very carefull and part of the dirt is still there!
It's all in one piece again.
In your opinion what would be a fair price for it?
Thank you again.
Regards.
Dennys.

quote:

Originally posted by Dennys Jorret:

I knew this dagger was more rare than any SS Chained. I already recieved some e-mails for selling it. However I do not have any intention to sell.

Well it seems others may know what it is too, or perhaps not. But if you ever sell it make them PAY for it.
You can't find that variation. I think there are only a few of us that have seen a real "unmessed" with example such as yours. I suspect some may have ended up in a "Chained overcoat" (scabbard). But that's a topic for another time.

Value: Well that is subjective but I wouldn't sell mine for any less than $8,000. (It's NOT for sale ).
And if some think that is too high..I don't think so. Go find another one.

Congrats are in order Dennys! You got a very nice and hard to find original all nickel 33 transitional "variant". They came that way but for a very short time.

Your Welcome.
Regards,
-serge-

Dennys-

Congrats on your rare dagger!! I think most of us are in shock it was given to you!!

Does your friend know what they gave away?

A Great and honest dagger...shame that so many different opinions can come about from an unquestionably good piece. When I started collecting daggers back in 1982 we didn't critique them this much. This variation was known and accepted then by those in the hobby without issue....me thinks the prices of these things are making a lot of people anal cheers and enjoy it.

quote:

Originally posted by [email protected]:
A Great and honest dagger...shame that so many different opinions can come about from an unquestionably good piece. When I started collecting daggers back in 1982 we didn't critique them this much. This variation was known and accepted then by those in the hobby without issue....me thinks the prices of these things are making a lot of people anal cheers and enjoy it.

That's it !
Nothing to add !

For my money, I'd say it is a '36 dagger in a '33 scabbard. If you look closely where the mark should be, I see factory crossgain. You typically don't see that in a ground dagger, regardless how well it's done.

Yeah its a 36 in a 33 scabbard, I have seen a few of these around recently. There was one at a show here in the UK last week for �1400 $2700. You see 36s with 33s in and they show up the other way round as well.

Here is a good example of an odd non marked piece. All been together for a very long time. All fittings are Nickle silver including the hanger and have an even Patina.

Notice the fat grip on this with thin crossguards. And they are defnately N/S not aluminium or pot metal plated etc.

No group marking on the reverse of the crossguard

Here you can see the ware marks on the handle where it has been worn with this three piece hanger

Sorry wrong pic above here is the handle ware

blade front

Blade rear, no makers mark

After not collecting for a bit and selling most of my stuff, I looked at this at the big show in Kent last weekend and decided to buy it.It was not very expensive and just bought it as a 36 in a 33 scabbard. It has a real quality feel to it and everything fits as it should.

On the way around the show I showed it to a few dealers and collectors and everyone seems to like it despite it not having a makers mark.

quote:

Originally posted by b_vanfossen:
Dennys-

Congrats on your rare dagger!! I think most of us are in shock it was given to you!!

Does your friend know what they gave away?

Thank you Vanfossen. I doubt that would make any difference about the dagger he gave to me. He already knew, like me, that SS daggers are scarce at least. I already told him all about. He is 89yo, he couldn't care less.
Dennys.

"Value: Well that is subjective but I wouldn't sell mine for any less than $8,000. (It's NOT for sale ).
And if some think that is too high..I don't think so. Go find another one.

Congrats are in order Dennys! You got a very nice and hard to find original all nickel 33 transitional "variant". They came that way but for a very short time.

Your Welcome.
Regards,
-serge-[/QUOTE]

Hello Serge.
Thank you very much for your help and comments.
I think congrats are in order for you too!
I understand you have a dagger exactly like mine. Very nice.
Best wishes.
Dennys

I am sure those M36 daggers switched with an earlier one for sentimental reasons had too end up somewhere.Thats probably why they are so rare.Now we have one more thing the fakers do not have too worry about.I can feel those grinding wheels warming up as we speak.

Thank You Dennys for the kind words.

Before I state my reasoning on Dennys dagger I want to take a moment to address Mongos example.

When you find an original patina dagger usually you will find all external parts has showed some even degree of oxidation-per side of dagger.
Your not going to find patina all over but emblems lacking any evidence of it.
Now I can't be certain from the photos Mongo provided but the SS button looks near "mint-condition. and unless it's the shadows of the photo appears the the edges of the button are raised above the surface of the wood. The wood around the button also does not look "crisp" to me. On these vintage 1936-1937 daggers the button should be well set into grip and the edges crisp as displayed in Dennys and the photos below that come from the example in my collection.
Regards,
-serge-

Also what one has to watch for on all German dagger but especially SS is "grip replacement". Now I'm not saying that Mongos grip is replaced..OK?
However on all the examples that I have seen of this early vintage one will most always find a smooth or perhaps a slight "wood-step" to the crossguard and grip fit. It's something I look for first...grip fit.
I really don't like the big step on the one you show Mongo-Sorry. ... Just My opinion and I hope I'm wrong.
Now "gaps" are OK due to wood shrinkage over the years.
Here is the area I'm taking about:

Yes it does have a bit of a step but is a very snug fit, let me get some pics.

Also in the last couple of years there has been a spate of "fake-Patina" daggers making the rounds both here in the U.S. and in Europe.
Not just daggers but medals, "ground-dug" this and a that. Fake SS chains loaded with "patina" coming out of Russia. And it goes on.
If you know what to look for in real patina they can't fool you. Most of the fakers use a wipe on "soot" that they then "highlight" to give it the "aged" look. Sorry I don't have one of those to show an example.
Various other methods to give an aged look..Ovens..the "roof-treatment, in ground treatment..etc.etc.
To tell on those needs a "hands-on" inspection by a qualified expert that knows what to look for.
And Sellick is right! We have become anal in our collecting of these historical items. And for good reason that is all too well known...it's all about the money these items now bring. And if you are not versed in the "true" market conditions of this hobby, or have access to someone who does, you will end up with an expensive pile of junk and a very bitter taste.

Last point..If you go to a show and see a dagger that is half priced you better know what your buying because there is a reason for it. And all the dealers who set up had seen it first during "set-up" and "passed" on it.
Regards,
-serge-

Here is my example of the same type as Dennys.
Purchased from the son of the veteran who brought it home. with the "relic" vertical hanger. Never been cleaned or disassembled. Never saw a gun or militaria show or been in a collection...until I dug it out of the "woodwork".
It exibitis all the same features as Dennys except that it has the "Upward-beak" grip eagle while Dennys is the "Long-neck". The runes on mine is the "touching" type.
Outside of that it is the same dagger and IMO it never saw a "chain" scabbard in it's life.

Regards,
-serge-

But ..But..it's got a 36-Chained unmarked blade Serge...How can that be? There's gotta be something vrong!

Original early nickel silver textbook M36 Average condition,$8000.00 Original M33 maker marked Average condition $4000.00 Total for both $12000.00 Original M36 non-textbook with makermarked dagger,but right as rain got it from the vet $8000.00 Extremly rare M33 with no maker or group mark made that way at the factory vet pickup I'm a good guy so I'll let it go at a good price $6500.00. $14500.00 and thats not even the right person at the right time price.Both of them nice and shiney.They would be easier to make then to try and find one.I would think if the no-maker mark M33 came from the factory that way .They would have a group mark at least from the group level.I'm just being the devils advocate. (Devil Face)

I have another without a makers mark but for the wrong reasons!

I also recently bought this actual dagger at the Kent show (it has a vertical hanger as well)it was not a lot of money. I looked long and hard at it with the makers mark ground out and nearly left it thinking it must be a wrong one as who on earth is gonna grind a makers mark out?.

Ok the makers mark has been ground out and yes its not perfect but I was pleased when I found out it was at least originally from a good home.I was even more pleased when I found out what had happened to the makers mark in recent times.

Pictures are property of worlddaggers and Dagger is now mine

http://www.worlddaggers.com/data/inspect.asp?Item=348&F...ith+exclamation+mark

quote:

Originally posted by zorro:
Original early nickel silver textbook M36 Average condition,$8000.00 Original M33 maker marked Average condition $4000.00 Total for both $12000.00 Original M36 non-textbook with makermarked dagger,but right as rain got it from the vet $8000.00 Extremly rare M33 with no maker or group mark made that way at the factory vet pickup I'm a good guy so I'll let it go at a good price $6500.00. $14500.00 and thats not even the right person at the right time price.Both of them nice and shiney.They would be easier to make then to try and find one.I would think if the no-maker mark M33 came from the factory that way .They would have a group mark at least from the group level.I'm just being the devils advocate. (Devil Face)

Hello Zorro.
I don't think I understand your point of view.
How can a scarce dagger like the SS 1936 "Chained" may cost around US$ 8.000 and, according to MOST members here, an extremly rare dagger like mine or Serge's can cost only around US$6.500 ?
I received several e-mails from eight different people, so far, asking for selling my dagger and the last one (today), not a dealer, offered me US$ 11.000!
There's just have to be something wrong on these numbers don't you think?
Danny.

Denny the point I was making is that a person can take two original daggers and reconfigure them and make an easy $2500.00.But with your estimate of value they would bring $19000.00 for a profit of $7000.00 just by switching scabbards and if a m33 no-maker was to bring $11000.00 what is going to stop people from re-grinding them.Also any original M36 dagger without the scabbard would be worth 6-7 grand.I don't and won't buy it.One more thing .Just because it is rarer does not make it more valuable demand figures in the equation.I would rather have a maker marked dagger over non-maker and that goes for all of them,except a chained SS. JMO

Now I see your point Zorro, thanks!
Since there's no other way or may be another detail to tell for sure that this type of dagger is still like when it was made in the factory, people will reconfigure the SS 1936 because of money. Not a difficult task.
That is quite a situation. I do understand the problem.
Thank you!
Dennys.