UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum Blued 'Sneak' ?

Gentleman,

I have recently picked up what a lot of people refered to as 'sneak' bayonet. It has the usual 'O' under the ricasso, no flash guard & unmarked. What makes it special is this piece was blued and it looks original.

As far as I recall all these are in the white & made by Ferlach in Austria. Am I correct in all these ? Has anyone seen the blued version ?

Thanks,

Keith

One side of the tang was marked S83 with a '1' & '8' stamped elsewhere.

The other side was stamped with serial 2249, an 'W' & 'VR'. The same serial is also found on the catch.

What do I have here ? Do the stamps represent anything ?

Keith,

I have two of these, both blued. They are both in such a condition that I don't think they have been issued. One for sure has the VR mark and some numbers 8516 and 7788. There is also a very feint mark on the spine of each that looks like an eagle. Does yours have this mark?

I'll check them both later for other marks and will try to post some pics.

Jim

Some really strange marking on these Keith, I re-read your post and both that I have are fitted with a flashguard.

The first bayonet is marked with VR and 8516 on one side, also what I presume is the assembly number of 7788. 7788 is also marked on the inside of the grips, the flashguard and the release catch. It is marked with a double droop wing WaA 253 on the pommel and aa straight wing WaA 253 on the release button, under the flashguard, on the inside of the grips and the scabbard finial.

The other side is maked W.W and a very blunt S or reversed 2, can't make my mind up.

The other bayonet is marked identically with the assembly number 1257 and WaA 253 in the same places. It differs in not having the VR or any Ws. Also I don't think the S 239 scabbard is a match though is in the same great condition. The are also some apparently random stamp marks that I arrowed. On the other side there is a very feint 4 and a nearly indistinguishable 1 can't get a camera or scanner to pick them up well enough to post.

There are some other marks all over these two that are difficult to read and don't seem to be either tooling marks or inclusions in the forging process.

Here's the eagle on the spine. It's difficult to scan or photograph and this is the best I've been able to do. Easier to see the resemlence to an eagle with the the naked eye and a magnifying glass. Similar in size to a WaA eagle but poorly stamped. It has been suggested to me that this is a Polizei mark. Also the O marked on the underside appears to me more like a lower case a but with a tail on both sides.

I've little doubt in my mind that all three of these are by the same maker apart from that not a clue. I've always wondered about them and would love to find out more.

Looks like the police acceptance mark to me

Carl is right on target. Jim's later bayonet is for the German Police. Keith's is an early (rust blued(?) commercial, some of which have (for example) German Railway markings. The random numbers/symbols on the tang (besides any serial or assembly numbers) had a meaning in the factories when the bayonets were made. Which were largely discontinued as time went on especially with the late issues. Nice bayonets. FP

PS: I forgot to mention that on Keith�s bayonet (assuming it is an early rust blued example), the frog stud should be lined, which seems to indicate that the scabbard may be a replacement. FP

Thanks for the great replies, both bayos have the eagle on the spine, I just posted the one that was the clearest. I can only assume that the reason fot the poor stamp is the hardness of the blade.

My next question is: If these are police bayonets why do they have the WaA acceptance mark? It seems unusual as surely the police would be commercial?

Fred, my first bayo has a totally unmarked scabbard except for the WaA, the stud is unlined. Any time frame for this? ?The bluing is beautiful except for heavy runner marks, which I cant do anything about.

FP

I have an unmarked un blued 84/98 without fashguard which i was informed was a sneak would that be right? and have you ever seen a ringed one as i have seen them mentioned but never seen one?

Jim, For some reason H�rster or the army inspection team supervising production there, had a problem getting its act together with the end result that some police bayonets got Waffenamts. But not serial numbers. Which in conjunction with the police marking set it apart from military issue bayonets. An unlined frog stud is typical, and as I recall 1939 is a pretty fair estimate of when they were made.

Carl, John Walter has a drawing of a muzzle ring equipped example in his book, but I have never seen one myself, and don�t know if they actually exist. While others (including myself at one time) thought they were something else. There is now I think sufficient evidence to prove that your bayonet is a fairly late 1930�s export model to Spain. Spain being an ally of Germany. White metal, no flashguard, and sometimes a straightwing eagle Waffenamt under the grips. Very often the Waffenamt is completely or partially erased. At one time I had hoped these were �Condor Legion� bayonets - but could never get around the fact that it had a straightwing eagle. Regards to All, FP

Thanks to Jim, Carl & Fred.

Carl, yours is identical to mine except on the finishing. As far as I'm concern, most of these were finished in bright (see Janzen, I don't have the book with me so I can't quote page numbers) that is why this thread was titled as 'Blued Sneak ?' because I have never seen one in blued.

Jim, yours is definitely a police 98K, which should be a different piece from the one discuss here. But it is interesting to learn that police 98K also have the VR & similar markings on the tang. I do have several police 98Ks but never attempt to remove the handle slabs.

FB, you always have sharp eyes Yes, I think the scabbard should be a replacement, the side screw was replaced by a rivet, like those done post war in Yugoslavia.

Based on the VR marks & similarity between the sneak & police 98K, do you think they were made by the same maker ?

The other thing is, those with muzzle rings do exist. Apart from Walter, it was also recorded in the Janzen(I think), and Jim Maddox's book. Jim suggested that these were intended for Spain like you said and were made with & without muzzle rings.

Thanks again,

Keith

Thanks for clarifying that Fred, it's always puzzled me.

Nice pieces, i believe that the first piece of Jim could be portugal contract,that was not serialed in this way?, the other is a police piece, the some initials on tangs were probably done in steelworks, that sended forgings to the different makers. best regards,Andy

Thanks for that information Andy, I'd always thought that the forgings were done by the individual makers. Both my pieces have the eagle on the spine, just that the second one was easier to see in a scan.