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#202215 05/31/2008 06:48 PM
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Smile. That's a nice picture. I do not recognize the cap emblems.

--dj--Joe


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#202216 05/31/2008 08:53 PM
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Here you go. It looks slightly different but I think it's the same type. I think that the outer line/border of the EK has blurred out in the period image......

Cap_badge.jpg (37.44 KB, 118 downloads)

"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
#202217 05/31/2008 11:06 PM
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Ahh, RKB. I never would have gotten that.

Thanks Don.

--dj--Joe


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#202218 06/07/2008 11:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by derjager:
Where did I just see an S mark with dashes around it on one of these?
--dj--Joe


Here you go Joe...... Wink

SA_rII_ob.jpg (18.12 KB, 100 downloads)

"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
#202219 06/07/2008 11:52 AM
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Other side

SA_rII_rev.jpg (15.62 KB, 100 downloads)

"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
#202220 06/07/2008 11:52 AM
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mark

SA_rII_mm.jpg (48.49 KB, 99 downloads)

"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
#202221 06/07/2008 05:26 PM
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Big Grin Was hoping it would find a home.

The nagging critter in the back of my mind tells me I have seen the AE mark before somewhere, someplace, but where? Confused

--dj--Joe


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#202222 06/21/2008 06:48 PM
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Any thoughts as to who the maker 'S' surounded with dashes was?

--dj--Joe


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#202223 09/15/2008 04:30 AM
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D
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Unable to post a picture of my SAR now, but it has the standard Ges. Gesch on the wings, but the maker mark is the letter C superimposed over a T or F (or a T or F over a C). Haven't the slightest idea of who it is, and always thought the design was a searchlight beam.

Dan

#202224 09/27/2008 05:57 PM
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Dan, what comes to my mind is Franke & Co. It would be F,C,L in a circle. L = L�denscheid.

--dj--Joe


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#202225 09/28/2008 02:55 AM
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Joe - Thank you for your reply.

It probably is Franke & Co. In taking a close up look with a loupe, it appears to be a definate "T" (with a small cross mark halfway up - so most likely really an "F"), with a smaller "C" superimposed on it. No circle or "L".

As far as I am concerned, Franke & Co. - F&C is it.

Thank you again, Dan

#202226 09/28/2008 03:41 PM
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Here is a drawing of the FCL mark attributed to Franke & Co.

scan000FCL.jpg (8.83 KB, 117 downloads)

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#202227 10/01/2008 02:14 AM
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Joe -Thanks for the picture - it's worth a thousand words!

Looking at the pin, the "F" leans slightly to the left, and the drooping lip on the top right end of the bar is barely visible. Center bar is in the same place but is equal on both sides. The "C" is the same right down to the small lip on top. But there is no "L" or circle.

I'm comfortable with Franke & Co. since the designs are really very close. It is probably just a trade mark variation, possibly because of the small available size area on the bottom of the pin.

Thanks again, Dan

DASH #224931 08/02/2010 08:46 PM
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Back around, hoping for more makers marks. smile

--dj--Joe


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derjager #360169 01/01/2024 10:02 PM
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Might as well drag this back into the light of the day. 2024 smile

Any new ones?

--dj--Joe


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derjager #360264 01/10/2024 08:43 AM
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Do you know whether the SAR II were covered by the RZM Joe? All the pins I've ever seen have individual makers marks. However, whilst flitting around the net the other day I came across one with an early transitional RZM mark.... RZM 96.

Questions;

1: The RZM mark looks as though it may have a lazy M so is it a fake?'
2: If not a fake, when did the SAR II disappear? Did they go around the time the RZM was introduced explaining why we do not see the pins marked with it?

Don

Image1.jpg (24.32 KB, 149 downloads)
Image2.jpg (28.37 KB, 149 downloads)

"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
derjager #360271 01/10/2024 06:48 PM
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can't answer your questions but.. I had a couple of these over the years. One was with a RZM.. It sure enough looked authentic.. Like this one,,good twist on pin,,details good. Can't really see the enamel but mine was real enamel..

derjager #360272 01/10/2024 08:22 PM
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I'll have to do some reading up on the subject of your question Don.
As to the lazy M in RZM I have noted some sloppy letters in the GES. GESCH. markings of some badges. Almost free hand lettering.

--dj--Joe


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derjager #360273 01/10/2024 09:02 PM
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Having a time nailing down a date for the decree of a visible RZM copyright protection symbol/code, on Reichszeugmeisterei controlled items.
1934 for the codes? 1929 for the establishment of the Reichszeugmeisterei body? Will keep reading but it would be good if someone more knowledgeable on the subject would comment.

1934, with Röhm's death. The influence of the SA began it's decline?

If I recall correctly I have seen a document with dual service images of the SA reserve II and the Kyffhäuserbund or the NSRKB. (?). Not sure where I saw the document. (If I could locate it there might be a visible date).
--dj--Joe

Last edited by derjager; 01/10/2024 11:08 PM. Reason: More info. Questions, (?)

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derjager #360278 01/10/2024 10:57 PM
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Neither here nor there, I have read that the SA Reserve II was for SA members over 45 years of age.

The more I read the more confusing it becomes with date timelines and the absorption of other units.

--dj--Joe


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Gaspare #360289 01/12/2024 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Gaspare
can't answer your questions but.. I had a couple of these over the years. One was with a RZM.. It sure enough looked authentic.. Like this one,,good twist on pin,,details good. Can't really see the enamel but mine was real enamel..

That's very interesting Gaspare. I don't suppose by any chance you can remember whether it was a transitional (like the one above) or whether it had the M1 designation?

Thanks Joe, sorry I was out all day yesterday so unable to partake in the discussion....

I've had a good hunt around the net & with dealer sites to see whether that are any documents. I'm starting to suspect that they were a short lived group.... I found an invitation to join the SAR II dated 1934 (sign up was 10th Feb through 12th March)...

31079404380_2.jpg (130.56 KB, 159 downloads)

"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
derjager #360290 01/12/2024 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by derjager
If I recall correctly I have seen a document with dual service images of the SA reserve II and the Kyffhäuserbund or the NSRKB. (?). Not sure where I saw the document. (If I could locate it there might be a visible date).

--dj--Joe

There are a few membership cards shown on various sites. Interestingly, I could not find one dated past July 1934.... This site has a short description on the group towards that bottom of the page & also shows two documents (dated June & July) https://moonwheel.eu/dues%203/sub%20nsdap%207/sa.html

Going back to my original question. I believe that the SA were covered by the RZM, so it is possible that the SAR could have been as well, although generally vet groups were not. It could also be that as the piece above is transitional, the manufacturer made a mistake & used an RZM number in error, making it an anomaly...

Last edited by Don Scowen; 01/12/2024 01:01 PM.

"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
derjager #360313 01/13/2024 10:26 PM
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Good find on the documents Don. I never did locate the one I recall. Must have sold.
I did read that the badge was approved in March 1934, but cannot confirm that.

--dj--Joe


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derjager #360590 02/01/2024 11:32 AM
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Whilst meandering around the net I came across another RZM marked piece, RZM 39. Quite roughly marked on the reverse, but otherwise looks OK.

P1012939-2.jpg (91.59 KB, 113 downloads)
P1012945-2.jpg (92.05 KB, 114 downloads)

"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
derjager #360597 02/02/2024 12:44 AM
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Don,
looks OK to me. Good sighting.

--dj--Joe


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derjager #361053 03/12/2024 10:25 AM
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R
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Badge | The badge for the members of the SAR II, designed by Colonel (ret.) Reinhard as the colonel commandant of the SA Reserve II and federal leader of the Reichskriegerbund, in the design of a Landsturmtschako from the time of the Freedom Wars with a swastika and two wings, was approved by the Supreme SA leadership on 25 March 1934. Reinhard owned all rights to this badge, it was protected by law and could not be obtained commercially

Delivery problems on the part of the manufacturers meant that the badges were not delivered until 24 June 1934. As the majority of SAR II men had further requirements in addition to the pins supplied free of charge, all sales outlets authorised by the Reichszeugmeisterei, which was responsible for production and distribution, were approved for sale in agreement with the Supreme SA leadership. The procurement office of the Reichskriegerbund took over the production and distribution until the end of October 1934. These badges bear the inscription "GES. GESCH." for "legally protected" and the mark of the manufacturer licensed by the Procurement Office of the Reich Warriors' Union. In the bulletin of the Reichszeugmeisterei (RZM) No. 23 of 3 November 1934, the RZM announced that the badge could now only be obtained from the RZM and that it must bear the protection mark and the RZM approval number on the reverse. Procurement via the Reichskriegerbund was no longer possible. The membership badge was only available in silver colour. Gold-coloured pieces are forgeries of the original badge.

The quality of the badge repeatedly caused major problems for the wearers and after numerous complaints, the Reichskriegerbund pointed out in the "Parole Book" that the badge was a relatively delicate object that had to be treated accordingly. If the metal plate on the back of the badge had become detached due to faulty soldering, it was exchanged free of charge. On 1 December 1935, the Oberstlandesführer published the measures for the dissolution of the SAL (formerly SAR II) on 31 December 1935. The badge with the winged tchako and swastika was no longer allowed to be worn. Permission to continue wearing it as a commemorative badge was refused by the Supreme SA leadership.

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derjager #361055 03/12/2024 03:37 PM
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1. Steinhauer & Lück, Lüdenscheid
2. Franke & Co., Lüdenscheid
3. Ferdinand Hoffstädter, Bonn
4. Hermann Bauer, Schwäbisch Gmünd

Abb 124ax.jpg (5.76 KB, 61 downloads)
Abb 124bx.jpg (6.41 KB, 62 downloads)
Abb 124cx.jpg (4.48 KB, 62 downloads)
Abb 124dx.jpg (5.6 KB, 62 downloads)
Last edited by Reichskriegerbun; 03/12/2024 03:57 PM.
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unknown marker

Abb 124ebx.jpg (4.89 KB, 63 downloads)
Abb 124ex.jpg (5.92 KB, 64 downloads)
Abb 124fx.jpg (6.4 KB, 63 downloads)
Abb 124gx.jpg (5.94 KB, 63 downloads)
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derjager #361057 03/12/2024 03:52 PM
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unknown marker

Abb 124hx.jpg (4.98 KB, 62 downloads)
Abb 124ix.jpg (7.3 KB, 63 downloads)
Abb 124kx.jpg (6.01 KB, 63 downloads)
Abb 124mx.jpg (7.21 KB, 63 downloads)
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Two tinnies with SA-Res II sign

Abb 125ax.jpg (8.58 KB, 63 downloads)
Abb 125bx.jpg (8.08 KB, 59 downloads)
Last edited by Reichskriegerbun; 03/12/2024 04:06 PM.
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derjager #361061 03/12/2024 11:24 PM
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Peter, very informative. Thank you. I understand the timeline now. You have answered many questions.
Two of the unknown makers are new to me. ( With a vivid imagination one looks like a Chimera standing on an E ).
Do I see correctly that the second tinnie/day badge has a 1936 date?

--dj--Joe


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derjager #361062 03/13/2024 05:53 AM
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Hi Peter,

Welcome back!

This is great information, thank you so much. So if I understand you correctly RZM marked pieces were available from November 1934?

Don


"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
derjager #361063 03/13/2024 06:51 AM
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Good Morning. Yes, RZM started in November 1934. And, the second tinnie has a date 1935.
Its nice to be here again!

derjager #361064 03/13/2024 08:05 AM
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Thank you for your quick reply Peter. I learn so when you are here cool


"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
NSRKB #361067 03/14/2024 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by NSRKB
Good Morning. Yes, RZM started in November 1934. And, the second tinnie has a date 1935.
Its nice to be here again!

Peter, thank you.
--dj--Joe


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