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I recently picked up this 1915 Erfurt saw back and was wondering what the Y mark stands for on the cross guard
Thanks

Another pic.

Hello Dow.

These markings, usually either capital case letters in block print or numbers, but sometimes what appear to be strange symbols. I have seen these letters or numbers appear in various places on S71/84s, S98/02s, S98/05s (in particular), kS98s and S84/98nAs.

In Bruce Karem's excellent book "The German S84/98 Bayonet Volume I," on page 73, Karem states "Most Erfurt produced [84/98nA] examples feature a letter or a number stamped on the reverse radius of the guard." Pictured on the same page is an example stamped "1." In my collection I only have one 1915 Erfurt S84/98 which is stamped "F" in the same place. He offers no direct explanation of these numbers and letters.

However, on page 44, he mentions the letter markings found on the very bottom of the blade edge (where it is flat) on W15 dated Mehlich and Move-Werke made S84/98s, and states..."It is the authors opinion that the letter designates a blank supplier..." I know of no evidence to support this theory, however, and given the huge number of examples on so many bayos with markings in the same place, including many examples known to have been completely made by one company (as opposed to being supplied blank blades from another company and then finishing the bayo) I find that hard to believe.

At present I believe these letters and numbers remain a mystery. It is most often suggested that these markings were individual inspection marks of some kind, perhaps applied to each individual part after being inspected. It has also been suggested, particularly with regards to the numbers, that they were used to assist in the construction of the seperate pieces.

Compiling a database of the different letters and numbers found on the 1915 Erfurt S84/98 examples may help show a pattern and shed some light on the mystery, at least as it applies to W15 Erfurt 84/98s.

I wish I could offer a more concrete answer, but I'm afraid these markings remain a mystery, at least as far as I know!

Here is a link to another 1915 Erfurt saw back I posted awhile back with no replies that has a II on the tang. Interesting how this one has no flash guard. I guess 1915 was a transgressional year when flash guards first started to appear.
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/...72097573/m/810106261

Dow, good news, those W15 Erfurt S84/98nAS are quite rare, and worth a good bit more than the much more common examples with flashguards! It's a good find for sure.

Karem states on page 35 of "The German S84/98 Bayonet:" Examples of early S84/98 issued without a flashguard a very rare." "Most texts attribute the addition of the flashguard due to problems encountered when the bayonets were damaged by the muzzle ring blast of the rifle - specifically grip panels being blown off or burned."

As you might imagine, faking the 84/98s without flashguard could be pretty simple, but there are a few signs that set the real from the faked: Examples that have had their flashguard removed will show a gap on each side of the tang and grip panels where the flashguard edges would have been. One could shave down the back of the grip panel to make it fit flush with the tang, but this would result in a grip panel that was too thin, and a quick comparison with another example will show this.

Yes, 1915 was something of a transitional year all around. This was the same year the flashguard was added to the S98/05 series. Prior to this date, I'm actually not sure flashguards even existed. That's actually something I'd like to research a bit more.

It's interesting that your Erfurt W15 S84/98nAS w/o flashguard also appears to be RC marked. This means that the bayonet was released from rejected inventory for use, as you probably know (though the RC marking was almost definitely also used for certain modifications done on a trial basis as it has been found on many examples, such as the S98/17 trials bayo modified from 98/05s). RC markings have only been found on W15 and W16 dated 84/98s.

But again, these markings are a mystery. There are several examples in my collection with numbers and letters marked in the same spot. Some have stamped letters which are cut off by the placement of the crossguard, which indicates the the marking was done before the bayonet was completed.

Examples of the extremely rare S71/84 trials bayonet appear to have almost every part numbered. Comparisons of two different examples seem to show that while they were both marked in the same spots, the numbers were totally different, which leads me to believe that these numbers had nothing to do with assisting in the order of assembly.

Another bayo rant....sorry about that.

Curiosity got the better of me so I decided to take apart the grips on the 1915 Erfurt 84/98 saw back without the flash guard. And am satisfied that their is no evidence that a flash guard was ever their. Note the good wood to metal fit.

2

3

Remarks from a advance colletor.(Flash guarded bayos have a different grind on the tang.You just cannot pull a flashguard off without it being very obvious.)