UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum Lets see some black!

Jedem das seine. Let each decide for themselves by their own lights. I, myself, rely always on my own judgment, especially in view of the general state of knowledge about this material in the world evidenced by this and other fora. Or I consult with one or two whom I respect, none of which is a dealer, either. Might I also observe this: I do not wait around for dealers to tell me how to make decisions, of that you can be utterly sure.

Mr Grumpy,
May we have a close up of the fringe around your piece please and could you discribe how it is constructed,,, Thank you in advance,,,Stephen

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Abenheim:
Jedem das seine. Let each decide for themselves by their own lights. I, myself, rely always on my own judgment, especially in view of the general state of knowledge about this material in the world evidenced by this and other fora. Or I consult with one or two whom I respect, none of which is a dealer, either. Might I also observe this: I do not wait around for dealers to tell me how to make decisions, of that you can be utterly sure.

Let me add a couple of points here: I have never seen an authentic black Sonderanfertigung officer's cap offered from Germany very recently or really at any time since the 1970s. The bulk of same I have seen in fact or in images are in the US. The grey cap here is, in essence, like the cap in the midwest, a Sonderanfertigung style of cap with a grey cap cover. It is not difficult if one has seen various Sonderanfertigung caps in real life to determine if this cap in grey (be it from Hamburg or Mazir al Sharif...) is put together or has the requisite traits of an authentic cap. Violin's cap is a Mueller cap, identical to other Mueller caps, save that it is grey and not black. I have seen several Mueller caps of the same era as colleague Violin's cap. If one is able to examine the Shea piece, it would be reasonably easy to compare it the metrics of known pieces to a high degree. I would also add, that in my experience, the only dealer who has offered a Sonderanfertigung black officer's cap for sale recently has also been the wizard of Hubbardston. His caps have I actually been able to examine, and they were all 110% authentic. Other dealers have offered the einfache Ausfuehrung, that is, the variant devoid of runes and a silk or rayon lining, for leaders. The Sonderanfertigung model for enlisted ranks are encountered in the ratio of about one such cap for maybe ten or fifteen of the einfache Ausfuehrung, i.e. with the orange water proof cloth lining. One could, possibly, have reassmbled this officer's cap from such a piece, but the images really do not suggest such a thing. Perhaps Mr. Ostermann will speculate whether the cap in question was perhaps remade?

Hi Donald hopefully you were the purchaser of this fine Shea example. I like the appearance of the cap and unless a hands on inspection gives reason for suspicion think it an original piece.There will always be detractors when an item does not conform to the norm in the collecting fraternity. Mr.Chapman acquired a rare and wonderful piece for a mere fraction of its true value because his knowledge out weighed the negative dispersions cast by the collecting masses. cheers, Ryan

Hi Bill Shea , although not an expert in all fields is quite accomplished in the arena of SS headgear. I feel confident that he would have examined this cap for the attributes of a reproduction or put together piece prior to offerring it for sale.cheers, Ryan

quote:

Originally posted by sellick8302@rogers.com:
Hi Donald hopefully you were the purchaser of this fine Shea example. I like the appearance of the cap and unless a hands on inspection gives reason for suspicion think it an original piece.There will always be detractors when an item does not conform to the norm in the collecting fraternity. Mr.Chapman acquired a rare and wonderful piece for a mere fraction of its true value because his knowledge out weighed the negative dispersions cast by the collecting masses. cheers, Ryan

Dear Ryan, I do not know who has seized this fetid woolen. If I find out, I shall tell you. And, you do, as ever, bring up a salient point that I poo-pooed a black Feldmuetze that Derek Chapman was able to buy, because I was a total depp and stupidly thought the thing to be made up. In fact, it was wholly real. Mea culpa. Wie dumm von mir. You are absolutely right that the group think here narrows the horizon of reality down to a pretty narrow slice, whereby much of the unknown unknowns (Herman Kahn & Donald Rumsfeld...) slip ever more into oblivion. These fora have increased my own knowledge of this material by 500%, and I am delighted to learn something new each day. Kevin Finley's Gundermann & Kornacker cap is just such a symbol of the ever widening horizon of the collector sphere, over which none of us has a monopoly of knowledge.

What I do know, though, is this: in the period from the introduction of the grey uniform (earth- or field grey) leaders in the SS at arms wore such grey caps, some of which surely were marked with runes, stamps, pi pa po. Nonetheless, in fact, few collectors have ever seen such caps even in black in the model for leaders. There was a wholly real black officer's cap on the WAF which one collector somewhat oddly asserted was the dagger king's fake of the late-1950s and early-1960s. Such an assessment was in error, of course. The cap was real. In another instance, a black cap illustrated in a leading reference was later poo-pooed by a leading dealer. The cap did have fake badges, but the thing itself (minus the badges...) was wholly real, and a very rare variant. The dealer in question was simply wrong, and grossly so. I treasure the ideal of consensus, but I think it is more or less impossible here to gain total agreement on many kinds of pieces because of their rarity as well as what surely must be described with the German word: Futterneid.

Glad to describe the banner, Stephen. I apologize for the photos, but had to crop them to get them to load on the site. I don't have the technical know-how to appropriately size them for display here. The dark background cloth appears to be silk. It may be a synthetic, but I doubt it. The larger silver pieces (skull, SS runes, etc.) are of one-piece very fine brocade. The black on the skull and oak leaves is embroidered to the brocade. The leaves are outlined in a very fine wire, as are the skull and runes emblem. The fringe is twisted wire. It has a gold cast to it. I can't tell if was originally silver, but I think not. Oddly, the leather attaching straps are almost a luftwaffe blue, about the same shade as used on 1st lw daggers and swords, but a bit grayer in appearance. The strap buckles are plated steel. Give me a little time and I will post the photos you desire. Thanks for the interest.

I forgot to mention the entire banner is sewn by hand and beautifully done. You have to scrutinize it to tell it was not machine-sewn. Here is a close-up of a corner depicting the fringe.

Attaching strap and buckle.

Donald,
The fact that I stated that some well known dealers had poo pooed that cap at the Stuttgart show, does not mean that I 'wait around for dealers to tell me how to make decisions'. But, thanks for the 'observation'. However, I do think that it is helpful to get input from other collectors (even if some of them are dealers) especially when considering purchases in a militaria show environment where cash is short and decisions often need to be made rapidly. If I had 30 years of ss visor cap collecting under my belt (like some on this thread) instead of 1.5 years of general ss collecting, who knows... maybe I would not need any input from others.
As I am less familiar with this style of grey cap, the RZM marking on the bill and the circular ss runes inside the cap gave me reason to be cautious. The cap also showed very little use/wear and the interior lining was not a material that I have seen in a grey cap before (it also is different than that found in the Violin cap). That being said, there were many aspects of the cap that I liked (as I stated) - which is why I took the time to check it out a bit at the show. If I had the opportunity to compare the cap side by side to the cap owned by Violin (as is possible in the pictures on this thread) I may have purchased it.
As I stated above, knowledge in paramount. If I had more knowledge of this type of grey cap - which I think we can all agree is extremely rare - it may have been added to my collection. As it is, it has become another piece of merchandise for Mr. Shea to offer at nearly 4x the price.
Doug

Dear Mr Ostermann. I am not going to have spats in public with you since it is against the rules here and rightly so. You misinterpreted what I wrote. I was writing solely for myself as regards myself and dealers. I did not generalize about you in particular, or else I would have written such clearly. If I were to do so, I should write to you in private, which I may yet well do. I did ask you politely whether you think the cap is remade. I am not sure whether you answered my question.

I have collected German head gear for forty years, give or take nine months. I am not sure what this fact means. I actually think in these contexts it means much less.

I also do not want to have a stupid public spat about dealers, since it is a trap, be it Weitze or Shea or the man in the moon. Far too much on these fora is lost to inane, circular fights about dealers which are proxy fights for the seven deadly sins. I do think that one's reputation in all of this is always on the line, and I find it odd that many figures (...and Mr. Ostemann, I am not generalizing about you...) spend more time sniping than they do either asking legitimate questions of adding material of value.

I have never seen this cap, other than on Shea's website, but like Ryan Sellick the cap seems that it might be rea--maybe not. The interior material is typical of NSDAP caps, and if the runes are real, that is very obvious. The fake runes are seriously off in their appearance. Please do not misinterpret what I am writing. The point of these fora is to enable people to make their own decisions. Without putting too fine a point on it, I also receive an average of at least three or more inquiries a day from people whom I have never met from all over the world to give an expertise on things, which, in many cases I never get even a single word of thanks. There are exceptions, but there is also a tendency here to reduce decades of hard won knowledge to a very modest commodity, which I think is excerable. This internet exchange breeds bad behavior in a kind of aggressive-ness, especially from neophytes, which would never happen across a table or vis-a-vis.

In any case, I shall close with this, and Mr. Ostemann, if you wish to take exception to something I have done here or elsewhere, then you have my email and you can write to me or call me on the phone. I'll even reverse the charges.

Donald,
I am not looking to get into a spat, particularly with you. You have been of help to me in the past and I am appreciative of your willingness to share your knowledge.
I'm not sure what brought forward the comment about 'waiting for dealers to tell you how to make a decision' but it did seem to be in reference to my posting.
My comment was not intended to denegrate the cap by stating that well known dealers hat poo pooed it, but to illustrate that even professionals are often quick to judge when faced with a rare/unfamiliar example. Not to say this cap is original (as I truely do not know), but I think it deserved more examination than many at the show were willing to give it.
I have stated most of the issues that caused me to pass on the cap at the show, but the most important two were certainly the lack of wear and the cloth used for the lining.
Given the images of the Violin cap for comparison, I am definitely more favorably inclined to believe that the cap has a good chance of being an original example. I would certainly need a lot more time with the cap in hand than I had at the show to feel comfortable adding it to my collection.
Doug

Doug and Donald I would like to think that I know both of you to a certain degree as I have spoke with you both and have done good business with you both. I respect your collective knowledge. Unless I missed something Doug I did not see anywhere that Donald singled you out for criticism or otherwise. Donald, just an aside I didn't know that you were one of those that cast negative comments on Derek's visor. Had I known I would have been sensitive and would not have brought it up as an example. You are both valuble members/contributors to this forum and it would be ridiculous to allow a perceived slight to come between you.Perhaps accept the offer of a telephone call. From my own experience many a similiar call has cleared up many computer misconceptions cheers, Ryan

Thank you. There are many, and indeed too many collectors (and I do not mean you, Mr. Ostermann) who have a blind faith in glamor dealers. They fail to enligthen themselves. They buy no books; they engage in no effort themselves, but flock to the temple of a few glamor dealers to sit at their feet to garner snipets of wisdom. One sees this syndrome in these fora constantly, and Roger Bender complained to me about this recently as a cause for the shifting fortunes of his publishing undertaking. It was to this phenomenon that I was referring, in fact, and which I find very curious.

Also,I am sure that I shall be pilloried for this, but I do think that Bill Shea knows exotic SS caps. I am aware that others are jealous and resentful on this score, and I do not mean to suggest, Mr. Ostermann, that you are making this statement. However, I have noted a tendency hereabouts of this general direction. I have seen many of his rather more over to the top SS caps, and in 99% of cases they are authentic.

If the issue is this that the illustrated examples of grey SS caps in the Schiffer books or Wilkins contain no such images of a cap with runes, stamps, &c, then I must cordially suggest that these books have certain understandable limitations. The violin cap is an example of a very rare kind of grey SS cap from the era of the Verfuegungstruppe/Totenkopfverband, you name it, in which the officer corps of the SS increased from a small size to much larger, but still actually a very small # of officers, I think less than ten thousand or so. When the Eberhard cap was made in 1937 in Munich (of this I am fairly sure....) the officer corps of the SSTV was at most between a thousand and two thousand men, if that. The strength of the whole SSTV at the end of 1937 was less than 10,000 men. The SSTV doubled in 1938, by the way. Thus, the Eberhard cap is very rare. But the officer corps of the SSVT was also quite small.

Thus, the early species of this cap is the kind of regalia, in fact, that is very unlikely to have survived the march of time. The image of a grey SS cap in many minds is that of a species made for the SS Kleiderkasse in the era 1941-943 or so, and examples are legion in the books and in the collector sphere. The cap in the hands of colleague Violin and the piece that came from Weitze and was in Swabia reflect an earlier variety, the existence of which I have known about since the beginning of the 1970s, but had not seen until recently.

You, Mr Ostermann, have seen the cap and have a leg up on the rest of us. In any case, the thing seems off to a new home and surely that figure might regret they were (wherever that may be...) not in Stuttgart to buy it for 1500 dollars. I, for one, am often seized by regret that I am not somewhere between the Rhine, Black Forest and Danube. I do intend to correct this matter at some point.

quote:

Originally posted by sellick8302@rogers.com:
Doug and Donald I would like to think that I know both of you to a certain degree as I have spoke with you both and have done good business with you both. I respect your collective knowledge. Unless I missed something Doug I did not see anywhere that Donald singled you out for criticism or otherwise. Donald, just an aside I didn't know that you were one of those that cast negative comments on Derek's visor. Had I known I would have been sensitive and would not have brought it up as an example. You are both valuble members/contributors to this forum and it would be ridiculous to allow a perceived slight to come between you.Perhaps accept the offer of a telephone call. From my own experience many a similiar call has cleared up many computer misconceptions cheers, Ryan

My friend,please do not worry in the slightest and thanks for the kind intervention. I make no secret of my many faux pas (what is the plural of same?...) and my cardinal failings. In the case of the field cap in black, I was so utterly wrong and I exclaim it from the roof tops as an example of my own limits. I wish all viel Sammlerglueck. PS. I have also examined a Wagner officers cap, ex- Barrandov film Fundus, which has the latter variant of party colored brown rayon lining as found in late (post 1937/8 or so..)NSDAP caps. When I first saw this cap, it was a shock---I thought that the interior had to be black...----but the piece was 100% real, even if the badges might have been fiddled with. The early SS Sonderanfertigung caps came with a reddish-brown silken lining, as illustrated in many images in this thread; there is a species of later cap with a rayon lining, identical to said NSDAP caps. The lining of the earlier Sonderanfertigung black caps is also similar to the silken lining of early NSDAP caps. It is quite distinctive in fact. Stezelberger has more than one such cap on this site via comparison to some of the images I have enclosed here. I shall post images later. My best wishes to all and, once more, my comments were of a general nature and directed at no one figure here other than when I have expressly mentioned someone's name. I hope for all concerned that the cap in question is: a.) authentic and b.) that the new owner will let me look at it one day. sapere aude.

Ahh Mr Grumpy, Many thanks for your extra images and information on the construction, your super shots tell all,a marvelous original banner that you must be proud to own,,,

I must say that I for one ask our Dear colleague in California his expertise if I come accross " out of the norm" peaked caps and very often do I forget to offer my thanks on a return mail !! Donald always reply's constuctivly and indeed is a valued confidant in this shark infested hobby,,, Stephen

Dear Steven, you are always the picture of impeccable manners. How could it be otherwise in the case of such a gentleman? schoene Gruesse, DA

Apropos materials used in officer's caps with runic embellishments. Exhibit a) the cream/ light yellow shade of silk in an early Mueller cap. More or less identical to colleague Violin's cap.

another example. Also of Mueller, but the variant with the name logo in the pre-1936 configuration. This is silk or rayon. Likely the former.

This is the darker, more reddish variant of silk, identical to that used in early party caps...

here is an example of more or less the same fabric in a political cap...

Here is the later sort of political lining fabric, in rayon, in this case in a tunic...it seems to me that it is this type of fabric in the grey cap in question...at least from the images... I have seen this exact material also used in black caps...indeed, I have a picture of just such a Mueller cap, but the file is too large for this locale.

another example of this color....or shade of same...the latter rayon color. Maybe someone has an image that will fit in this space of the color I mean. My files are too weighty...

Here the earlier, silken reddish shade once more...

an early cap with the reddish silken interior, a Wagner/BS of very early make...note the leather peak, by the way...

It would seem that the posting of the images of my cap may have been fortuitous to Bill and the sale of his cap. No one should feel badly at passing on such a cap as few have( it is my understanding)ever seen one. It is my understanding that there may be a couple of others known to exist but they are NOT IN VERY COLLECTABLE CONDITION. My only concern about the Shea cap would be the lack of both tags and the condition looking so new. Certainly it could be so and that is no sole criteria for exclusion. Remember these caps are almost 70 years old and were worn possibly for years before the war started and before they could be a war trophy to be preserved. The one thing that most strikes me about my cap is the overwhelming since and feel of time, distance and age the cap imparts. Absolutely impossible to duplicate correctly although many try. David

Dear David, esteemed "violin.." You have the great fortune of an exceptional piece, with character and patina sufficient for twenty caps. Your photos are also first rate and your piece is also identical in its key traits to its black twins in their number. The cap on the Shea site may be a variant; it may not be. Maybe an insidious and cunning fake, modeled after your cap! Ein Witz... Worse has happened, but Shea himself is an advanced SS collector, is he not? I cannot generalize about this cap without seeing it in person and now it is on its way to its new owner. Perhaps he will post further images; perhaps it will vanish never to be seen again. I would note, though, that in the Heinrich Hoffmann volume published in 1937, Hitler abseits vom Alltag, there is a cap identical to the Shea piece on a page (unnumbered...) where AH is greeting the multitude at the foot of the drive to the Berghof. The cap is grey, with same Hussarentotenkopf. As concerns tags, I have seen more than one authentic black SS cap without its tag, which, somehow, was lost in the fullness of time. The RFSS tag was phased out ca. 1938, I think. I believe it was in use for about four years, i.e. 1934 'til 1938. I believe the bevo tags generally went by the boards about then, but this is a guess. Because the sweat diamond is gone, the RFSS tag may also have fallen out. Who knows?

Once more, we all rejoice in your authentic cap and thank you for showing it to us. Someday you must get all of Eberhard's file from the BA Berlin and share it with us.

Don, as always I thank you for your kind words. I most certainly must get the records from Germany as that is all that is left. I have most of the US records certainly. I hope that the Shey cap is real. I have some photos of an officer of the LAH with this gray cap and the Hussarentotenkopf in ware so we know that such can be the case as you stated. I will try to down size it and post it if I can. David

Thank you., dear colleague. If I can help you with the Bundesarchiv in Berlin, please let me know. I have contacts there. That Eberhard was in the SSTV is a very intriguing point. As concern other images, in fact, Sepp Dietrich wore a grey cap with the Wehrmacht Hoheitszeichen and the Hussarentotenkopf ca. 1934/5, I believe--or maybe it was black. Such is shown in the various recent German illustrated bios on him as well as on the LAH. Hitler visited the LAH Kaserne in the Finckensteinallee at the end of 1935, and there are numerous images of the officers in grey at this early date. Derek Chapman surely can add vital data on this score. In any case, all the best to you, dear colleague, for sharing your treasure. As to the Shea cap, fate shall reveal more to us, or not. Herzlichst, DA

another image of the later rayon lining of NSDAP caps, also used in black officer caps ca. 1938 as well...

a later Mueller Sonderanfertigung with the cream or yellow lining, here without the runes...however, quite authentic...notice as well here the paper sweat band. The Sonderanfertigungen did come with this cheapo sweat band...

The subject of the introduction of grey peaked caps for the SS-VT and SS-TV is an interesting one and perhaps worthy of its own thread. The earliest grey caps were field caps for men, which seem to have been introduced sometime in 1934. The leaders' grey caps were possibly adopted the same year although the early photos I have of them being worn are unfortunately undated.
As pointed out above the Leibstandarte officer corps had the grey service caps prior to the summer of 1935 as well as grey field caps.
For those interested, a thread on the Wehrmacht Awards Forum illustrates a rare example of the officer's field cap.
Derek

Derek,
Try finding the thread you mention on WA. can you tell me the name of this thread and it's location?
Thank You
John
JF

quote:

Originally posted by John F.:
Derek,
Try finding the thread you mention on WA. can you tell me the name of this thread and it's location?
Thank You
John
JF

The chap who posted the headwear goes by the screen name of z.b.V. 500. The cap is described as "salty.." It is also a remarkable piece, of a kind seen by few mortals.

quote:

Originally posted by derek chapman:
The subject of the introduction of grey peaked caps for the SS-VT and SS-TV is an interesting one and perhaps worthy of its own thread. The earliest grey caps were field caps for men, which seem to have been introduced sometime in 1934. The leaders' grey caps were possibly adopted the same year although the early photos I have of them being worn are unfortunately undated.
As pointed out above the Leibstandarte officer corps had the grey service caps prior to the summer of 1935 as well as grey field caps.
For those interested, a thread on the Wehrmacht Awards Forum illustrates a rare example of the officer's field cap.
Derek

Dear Sir, as your devoted pupils please enlighten us on this score. Is my assessment of the Holden cap correct or a foolish guess? I assume that the Kleiderkasse and the VA price lists must have begun to include grey peaked caps at a point, at the latest by 1937 and likely earlier. Further, I assume that certain of these caps had the same markings, as visible in the Holden cap, as the more well known species of black SS cap. Many thanks to all for their kind aid in this arcane matter. danke vielmals.

Rather than steer this thread away from its focus on black items I have started a post on the introduction of grey caps.
Derek

Can't wait to read on the gray cap!

Hope others still can feel free to post anything
SS.

But the thread has turned interesting!

As most know these fine items of time must be treated with care!

Threads are getting weak and the pulling and looking for tags and marks and such takes a toll.

I am trying to take pics so I can save the wear and tear of these beautys!

As prices rise, we must protect our investments
and preserve history!

Many fine items get manhandled by fools at shows!

At the last Jag, Tom Wittman had a 25k sword
blade on display when some skin head freak
grabbed it by the blade, before Tom spotted
this fool!

Armband friend brought in to show me!

PVON

PVON

tag

Oh! And the fool firmly had the item with both
hands!

Your point as to the fragility of this regalia is well taken. The arm band is very nice. The VA tag "21/34" begs the questions of: a.) who was "21"; b.) who were the other 20 contracts in 1934? c.) how did this system work with the SS and the RZM? Some of the clues are in Mollo, but you have to read between the lines.

Hi Paul, would you mind posting these pics of my SS Mess Dress for a member of theStaff of the RFSS . On the topic "lets see something black" GDF" its quite a nice thread .

This is for collector Jim Toncar

PVON