UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum Lets see some black!

Here is something different, the use of the symbology of death in art and culture. No fetid black woolens here, but still German culture and even politics in a very remote sense. This is the work of one my favorites, Alfred Rethel, a German painter of the mid-19th century, "Tod als Wuerger."

DONALD,WHEN YOU FIND A WHITE SS TAG UNDER SWEATBAND,AND BLACK TAG IN INSIDE CENTER.THAT WOULD BE A GREAT SIGN IT WAS MADE IN 1936?

quote:

Originally posted by JIM A:
DONALD,WHEN YOU FIND A WHITE SS TAG UNDER SWEATBAND,AND BLACK TAG IN INSIDE CENTER.THAT WOULD BE A GREAT SIGN IT WAS MADE IN 1936?

There are at least four (..and perhaps more..) kinds of white tags. It depends on the one in question. The officer's cap above in the polaroid is, I think, from about 1936. That is a swag, really, for one can seldom really know unless the thing has a VA issuance date. I also look for other signs on manufacture. The RFSS tags under the sweat diamond seem to have been phased out around 1938. Hence, one tends to see these from about 1934 until 1937/8. In the end, of course, these black caps were made for maybe at most less than a decade. i.e. 1932 'til 1941 or so. The latter date is also a swag.

This tag I associate with the era 1935/6. This is a Heinrich Wille/ Hannover, a contractor of many black caps, to be sure. However, I do also think that the "SS Dienstmuetze" white tag was used at the same time, but I am not really certain. I believe the cap itself was offered for sale in the UK ca. 2002/2003. I wish I had snagged it. I also believe that this is the last of the white tags, which originate ca. late 1933 or early 1934. Let me stress, however, that all of the above is empirically informed speculation, devoid of much evidence in the regulations. I do believe that the Bender books contain concrete archival evidence on this score from the Mitteilungsblaetter d. RZM. This data is contained in the NSDAP/SA volume. I have neither it nor the most recent volume, in fact.

Another example...I believe this is Steven Lee's nice cap, which is also posted here again.

This is Mr. Modena's early piece. I think this tag was used before the white tag above, but also concurrently.

This variant of a white tag is quite rare, but granted the dates associated with it, it, too, might have been used concurrently. Someone has more evidence than do I. The riddles that shimmer before us in the murk.

THIS IS A WHITE TAG IN A SS E.M.VISOR HAT OF MINE.WHAT DOES TUCHMUTZE MEAN?HEAD GEAR?

THE BLACK SS TAG IT THE SAME HAT.

MORE OF HAT

LAST OF HAT

Thank you for the images. Tuch= cloth; muetze= cap. That is a nice piece with a maker's # I had not seen before. Viel Sammlerglueck. By the way, as to this here to fore unseen number, this kind of data is a monthly or weekly occurence in all of this.

I guess it would not be a bad time to show just what all these black woolen items morphed into. This is as close as you will most likely ever get! David

Next photo

next photo #3

next photo #4

I showed this cap a few years ago but it is deep in the old files so I thought a refresher post was due. David

Dear Colleague, your grey cap, of course, places the black ones very much in the shadows. An exceptional piece. I had saved your images when they first appeared. When you decide to sell it, please let me stand in line. There are many grey caps, but they are devoid of these features. I also imagine this cap was from about 1937 or 1938. Do reflect for a moment on how few officers would have had such a cap in that year: very few, indeed. Is there any stamping on the reverse of the sweat band? Ein Prachtstueck. The grey caps went from this marking similar to the black caps to being quite unmarked. How is a mystery to me. Many thanks for this piece and viel Sammlerglueck.

Thanks Don for your comments.I now am certain that this cap was the property of Richard Eberhard. There were as you remember other Eberhards but Westmoreland Research found that Richard was in SS/TV Brandenburg from 10-7-37 to 1-4-38 followed by SS/TV Thuringen Followed by SST.Inf.Rg.3 etc. That was my man, no other it could have been as you pointed out. Again not WSS but SSTV. There is ink stamp on back side of leather band but difficult to read. A number like 143 but I am not sure. David

David, this is a visor where everybody can dream about to have in a collection. This one has an interesting history. Gratulations !

Don, thanks a lot for showing all the real label styles !

PS, Eberhard received both ring and sword and was a Hauptsturmfuhrer by 25-8-39 and fought with the Totenkopf through 1944. I am sure there is more on this officer out there. David

Very interesting data, to be sure, and the Totenkopfverbaende connection with Eberhard makes the cap even more remarkable. I guess we did have an exchange on this score at the time. An astonishing piece. We celebrate your pleasure in ownership of same and thank you that we might see it once again. Afterall, such is the point of this effort. We long to see the remarkable and the stupendous.

Lieber Robert, endlich habe ich die Zahlung fuer Sie, und werde diese morgen abschicken. Ich danke Jhnen fuer Jhren Geduld. Herzlich, Dein, DA

Here is an early tag in a black cap.

The inside

WONDERFULL ITEMS OF BLACK GENTLEMEN PLEASE KEEP THE COMING AND WE SHALL ALL LEARN MORE FROM THESE ORIGINAL ITEMS,,,,, Stephen

quote:

Originally posted by ksfinley:
Here is an early tag in a black cap.

I wrote above that, each week, new material comes to light. I have never seen this particular tag in a black cap. And mark you, I have seen more than one black cap and a lot of tags. This is a very rare variant from a rare maker. I have seen caps from A1/35 (maybe Derek Chapman will tell us who this was...) However, this evidence found by one of our most accomplished masters of the here to fore unseen piece, substantiates my point that all lists of "known makers..." or variants a through d are somehow specious. It is all well and good to make lists, but they have to be definitive. Rather, we take pleasure in reflection on the known knowns and the unknown unknowns.

The A1/35 license was given to Gundermann and Kornacker of Magdeburg.
This thread has turned into a splendid pictorial essay of RZM tags. Collectors would be well advised to save off these images for their files.
I would love to see exterior shots of the latest hat posted as it appears that it has been upgraded with officer's cords.
Derek

Hello all,

I am well out of my league when it comes to A-SS/W-SS headgear however I would note that Bill Shea has just listed an interesting transitional W-SS cap on his site. best regards,

Mike

Thanks to Derek Chapman for his data. It is interesting that Wille was in Hannover; Wagner in Braunschweig, and Gundermann & Kornacker in Magdeburg. These are all no. German makers of a kind, and all somewhat close to each other geographically. That is, as you travel from east to west on the A2 from Berlin to the Ruhr (or vice versa...), you pass through each of these towns. I had not known of the cap makers, heretofore, save from C. Wagner. I am also sure that I have left something out in my little compendium, as well. However, Kevin's Gundermann & Kornacker tag is quite a welcome addition.

Bill Shea's visor looks original and shares many traits with the example pictured. Price is over $8000.00. cheers, Ryan

Classic thread!

Nice stuff shared!

Learning all the time!

PVON

I should add that Adolf Ernst was in Hannover/Nord, as well. I wonder if this concentration of contracts to these no. German locales was to compensate for the likely concentration of contracts closer to home of the RZM in Bayern? Or to distribute the work away from the Reichshauptstadt, which was weighted down with such contractors. A minor and perhaps picayune point of no apparent historical meaning... To colleague Vondrack, you started all of this, afterall, and encouraged me to overcome my reticence about images. "...Immer Vorbild sein..." is how I was raised, of course. I am sure that Kevin will append more images of his cap. He is quite the genius of unearthing the subterranean fetid woolen.

The Officers cap cord appears to have been on the cap for a long time. The side buttons are sewn to the cap.

Nice saddle shape.

IS THERE ANY BOOK THAT HAS A COMPLETE LISTING OF THE RZM NUMBERS OF THE BLACK HAT MAKERS?

quote:

Originally posted by JIM A:
IS THERE ANY BOOK THAT HAS A COMPLETE LISTING OF THE RZM NUMBERS OF THE BLACK HAT MAKERS?

There is the Handbuch d. RZM from 1935 as well as the Mitteilungsblaetter. It contains the names of firms to whom licenses were given. I do not believe it contains what kind of regalia they, in fact, made, other than in a most general sense of the license itself. Once one got a license to make headwear, I imagine one made the headwear warranted by contract or the bespoke requirements of customers (on a small scale...) However, there is no secondary work to my knowledge with this data. And, I sincerely doubt that many souls actually know which firms (in total...) made such caps. I have included here the results of forty years of empirical study, greatly aided by the kindness of others. The search for lists generally leads to a dead end. In any case, the fakers have begun to copy the Zulassungsnummer of the major contractors, in any case. Many caps were made by Wille/Hannover; Wagner/Braunschweig/Hamburg, and A. Mueller in Muenchen. But as one can see here, there were several other makers, and I am sure that there are several more about which I know nothing at all. Derek Chapman can help me here and I must buy the latest Bender book all the same. We look forward to Derek Chapman's book, and Shea is finishing off the work of the late Michael Beaver. The key though, is to be able to recognize a real cap, and the Zulassungsnummer is but one piece of data. I think the mania in the dagger biotope for numbers is all well and good, but one cannot offer such a list until one finds the list the SS itself used or that used by the RZM. The issue here is that the fakes of these have improved drastically, in part because of the Schiffer illustrated works. One has to stay ahead of the boese Menschen. The Gundermann & Kornacker piece is quite rare, and the tag in Kevin's cap is an unikat for me, actually. I should also add that the secondary work upon which many rely provides only partial insights into this material, that is, black SS headwear. For instance, do refer to it in search for just this Magdeburg firm and report back on what you find.

Kevin has found a very nice cap as he so generally does.He has also recently found other SS headwear of great rarity. He just should not spill coca cola on such a thing, though.

Allgemeine-SS trumpet banner - the real deal!

"Skull" side.

quote:

Originally posted by sellick8302@rogers.com:
Bill Shea's visor looks original and shares many traits with the example pictured. Price is over $8000.00. cheers, Ryan

Dear Ryan, the cap in question is now on hold. Donnerwetter. It seems as if you facilitated a sale! It is an intriguing piece, and, next to the piece in the hands of our colleague Violin, the now world famous Eberhard cap, it may the 2d I have ever seen in forty years as an officer's cap in field grey. This sort of thing must have been in use in the years 193X-1940 or so. But in which year did such grey caps first appear? From the photos, we know the year to be 1935 in the case of the LAH. From Colleague Violin's cap, as well as Eberhard's notional dates, then I vote for about 1937 at the latest. Derek Chapman must come to our aid, as he always has the data on these kind of things. When does a grey cap for leaders appear in the price lists? In any case, Shea seems to have found a taker for his grey cap with the runics. Sapere aude.

I believe that the cap on the Shea site came from Weitze. If so, I had it in hand at the Stuttgart show. At a fraction of the price, the cap was widely 'poo pooed' by a few well known dealers. But, I must admit that it has many nice traits that do share some similarities with the cap owned by violin.
As always in this hobby... Knowledge is Paramount.
Doug