UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Genuine vs. Fake WW II German swords

Since the end of WW II counterfeiters have been busy making literally thousands upon thousands of counterfeit German Third Reich blades. Altered originals, reproductions, and fantasy blades that never even existed during the time of the Third Reich. They come in all sizes and shapes. Some are high tech and some are low tech. Old parts, new parts, and parts that originated half a world away from Germany. They are found with Damascus blades, paneled blades, silver hilts and in multiple other sometimes ingenious configurations. All designed to convince unsuspecting buyers that they are legitimate period artifacts.

While perhaps 95% or more of this activity is focused upon dress blades. It is slowly creeping into military issue/combat blades as another source of revenue for the fakers.

A (relatively) recent addition to the items being faked is posted below. To the left is a TR period standard issue German Army cavalry saber. Above it a Russian cavalry saber - the same as was carried by Russian cavalrymen that were in German service.

And to the right: A “Wehrmacht” issue Russian style cavalry saber. And we know it’s "really" a Wehrmacht issue sword because it has the German eagle over a swastika on the pommel. The sword would not lie to us would it? Right?? They are not seen in circulation very often now as most have already been absorbed into collections. The sad thing is that these postwar fakes are often sitting alongside legitimate period blades (and in some cases other fakes). And the owners don’t have a clue they are not real - but are instead somebody’s idea of a way to make money. FP

A good friend of mine, who emigrated from Russia a few years ago and dealt in Russian militaria, told me that a large movie studio in Russia has been making very good replica Cossak sabers for a number of years, and a few years ago they started hitting the US market, priced well under the usual price for a cossak saber.
As far as other Third Reich swords are concerned, I think the main threat is fake etchings which I have been told are starting to be more of a problem with the price of etched and presentation blades getting as high as they are. The postwar navy saber is always a potential problem also. Solingen made a lot of very high quality swords after the war, and there is no reason to believe that some of them havent been turned into Third Reich pieces. JOe S

Reproductions, enhancements, collector copies, restorations, etc. are all words that dance around the term, "fake." Fake German edged weapons have been around since the guns fell silent when bombed out Solingen craftsmen were putting together various unused bits and pieces to trade to GIs for food and cigarettes. There is little in the way of German militaria (including swords) that has not been manufactured, put together, or enhanced after the end of May 1945. Everyone reading these words knows this.

Until just recently, swords have been fairly safe to collect as Fred points out. Lately, the Pakistanis and Chinese have gotten into the game in a big way and have flooded the market with newly manufactured fakes. These oddly made fakes might fool the novice (who isn't reading this anyway) but would not trick most of us out of our money except at the first blush of seeing one. I have talked to several folks who order and import these fakes and the makers will make whatever one wants, so expect them to get better and better over time. It is simply a matter of how much money the guy selling the fakes wishes to spend to make a better fake.

This trickery has been going on for a long time. I recall the basement of Joe Walters of House of Swords and Militaria in the 1970s. Anyone remember him? Poor old Joe was recently murdered due to his activities but he was driven out of business by US Customs years ago for importing fake Pakistani made swords and bundles of etched blades. House of Swords spread hundreds, if not thousands, of fake edged weapons throughout the US via Joe's slick cover catalog. I always bought the new catalog because it made a great reference for the latest fakes. I still see the fake etched and presentation engraved Civil War swords being sold as originals at gun shows and I know many are in old collections and that they are not worth the price of the Pakistani steel that they are made from. Of course Joe "enhanced" original swords as well and had a jeweler who would hand engrave presentations from real people that Joe had researched so the dates and names are all correct. Not a nickel and dime operation my friends. I have seen Joe's more elaborate fake swords sell for $8,000 - $10,000 in their hayday.

If you think that only Jim Atwood had the idea of importing "parts" daggers and swords...you have got another think coming (as my Grandmother use to say). Be careful out there sword collectors, there are folks that are out to get your money. Buy the books and look at lots and lots of swords and share information on the militaria forums.

Orpo , is there any chance to see those kind of swords on the web?
Rob.

George, I think that your posting should be put on all of the forums. You got right to the heart of the matter of what I was trying to get across - which was that just because something at first glance looks like it might be a Third Reich creation - that does NOT make it so. And then it might not be a bad idea to have it republished every once in a while just to remind everyone.

Your first hand knowledge of the activities of the “House of Swords” shows how widespread the problem was 30 years ago with U.S. blades. With those blades now coming back into circulation. But as you point out. For Third Reich blades the fakes began right after the war stopped. There are a ton of what I call “old school” fakes of all types of blades in collections. Largely modified, parts pieces, conversions, etches, engraved, (etc.) using original items as their basis . Some of them are very well done, and have fooled even advanced collectors, and some of the “names" in the business. Some have even gotten into print not very long ago.

The posting was not intended to scare anybody away from collecting. But to educate especially new collectors that they have to be very careful and educate themselves before making purchases. With self education (examine as many blades as you can) and books. And a forum such as this one where viewers can actually see what is being discussed. And hear all the different viewpoints. And then make up their own minds.

Then they can go out and make better informed purchasing decisions themselves - instead of relying completely upon the expertise of the seller. Who may lack training/expertise. Might have overlooked something. Or may be more financially motivated for themselves, which unfortunately is often the case, given the broad base of sellers of (supposed) Third Reich artifacts.

Collecting is a very enjoyable experience with the excitement of the “hunt” for something new. For many collecting becomes something they do for a lifetime. But I can still remember (as a beginning collector) the very sick feeling I got in the pit of my stomach, when I first discovered that I had been badly *crewed on a deal. I have seen too many people who had the same experience and quit collecting. And we want people to be able to embrace collecting. But to also be aware that it’s not a perfect world. And to exercise some caution. So that they are not taken advantage of by someone who might have their own personal interests at heart instead of their customers.

BTW: While I think that they are isolated incidents - what is going on? I can understand where there might be a fight in a bar where some guys have a serious disagreement over an item. But I had not heard that piece of information about Joe Walters. Rumor had it that Roger Steele (a major faker of high end Third Reich items) was murdered by someone he *crewed on a deal. As far as I know his homicide was never solved(?). FP

Hi George,
I didn't know old Walters was murdered. Can you share any details? Thanks.

-wagner-

Hi, I normally just kind of lurk around here, but I have to say something about your comments on Joe Walters. I knew him pretty well, on the phone, never met him. And I bought quite a bit of stuff from the House of Swords back in the late 60's - mid 70's. I was not into daggers and swords back then, mainly Medals and decoratios. But, with those qualifications, I got a LOT of GOOD Items from Joe and never had any problems with him or his stuff. Anyway, I have a couple of questions.

"he was driven out of business by US Customs years ago for importing fake Pakistani made swords and bundles of etched blades."

Question: Why would U.S. Customs care about anyone importing repro swords or blades from Pakistan? There is no law that says Reproduction TR stuff is illegal in ANY way, and Thousands of blades and swords are imported from there almost daily! Please Explain if you are going to make an allegation like that.

It has been years since I talked to Joe but I am like Wagner in that I had heard nothing of him being murdered "due to his activities" Please explain that also.

If Joe is dead, which I will try to verify shortly, I would like to hear your story of how he got that way.

Best Regards,

RG88

I think that in the early years Joe Walters had good items. In fact some could probably be considered very good. But in the later years as things dried up he resorted to fakes. His 'basement' (or wherever he kept them) was reported as having large quantities of swords and other items. One was sold. To be replaced by another of the basic same model until the pile was reduced to zero

Years ago I remember a guy who came up to the table with half a dozen swords he said he purchased from Joe Walters. He had owned them for a while and wanted an appraisal. I think he wanted to sell them to buy something else. The one mediocre quality Austrian NCO’s saber was not worth much - but was otherwise OK. Very unfortunately: I had to give him the bad news that the other five swords were all fake. He was not a "happy camper". FP

Hi Fred, I appreciate your response, and would credit it as factual, since you are reporting from personal experience. But, I was really wanting ORPO to explain his allegations regarding the U.S. Customs, and, if true, the allegations as to Joe's "Murder"! I also appreciate the statment you made concernning Roger Steele in that you DID say "Rumor has it"! I, personally, would never state something as fact where it was possibly going to be read by literally thousands of people. Especially if I was aware that the statement may not be factual! Or if I did, I would most certainly have the information to back the statement up! So, ORPO, you have the floor!

Railgun88, I understand your concern with unsupported statements. As you correctly surmise my knowledge of Joe Walter’s swords is a first hand experience. My best recollection is that the owner had either a receipt or catalog with the items pictured from the House of Swords. So there is no question the House of swords was the source of the fakes.

As for Roger Steele I intentionally qualified my statement as a “rumor”. That is because I don’t have a direct recollection of a newspaper article or other report of an untimely demise. I was, however, fairly active in the Southern California collecting arena and either knew or saw a lot of the folks whose names have been mentioned. And some names who have not been mentioned. For those who have: For example I knew Dick Deeter (of the Luftwaffe “Wolf” sword saga) personally. And later I used to see and talk with Tom Wittmann, a number of others, and even used to see Craig Gottlieb walking the aisles.

I heard the “Roger Steele” story from not just one, but many people over a long period of time. The story was invariably the same. I have left out some of the details only because I don’t have personal direct information. He was another who had a closet (basement/whatever) full of fakes. Of that I am sure. FP

Railgun,

You are quite correct that one should not make unsubstantiated allegations and that rumors abound in this hobby. I have also heard the old saw that one should not speak badly of the dead but the truth will out. Let me tell you what I know.

Joe is dead of foul play and you can find that information feely available in his local and Kansas City Metro newspaper files. His death has already been reported on WAF (not by me) and you can also find a thread there with newspaper links as I recall. Just do a search. As a matter of fact, law enforcement recently made an arrest and the the court files are also a public record. So, please check and confirm if you like.

I knew Joe years ago in the 1970s too. A personable fellow who carried a nickel S&W Chief's Special in his front pants pocket. I have been in his basement and seen, with my own eyes, the items I am talking about. Joe sold many originals over the years but as time went on he sold many fakes. Joe told me face to face they were fakes.

I also know how he was shut down because the Customs Agent who made the case against him was a colleague of mine. I am a retired policeman and when someone drops a dime on you to the police, they do care and investigate. The actual charges that got him were that he improperly imported swords and blades from Pakistan without marking them as coming from Pakistan. Joe decided to go out of business rather than go to jail.

Anything else I can help you with?

There is a federal law that requires imported items to be stamped with the country of origin,I beleive there is an exception for antiques and collectibles, but newly made swords would not qualify for the exemption.

ORPO, Thank you so much for the clarification! I am kind of sad that Joe met his end through foul play. I am sure you are correct about what you say. Joe was a very personable guy and we talked a lot about his colorful past back in "the Day". Like I said, it has been many years since I spoke with him but he was always straight up with me, at least. I can just see him stopping business rather than just putting a little paper tag on his imported items! Just out of pure cussedness! Sounds just like him, I think! Thanks for the clarification again. Best Regards, RG88

Railgun,

Thanks for your understanding. My post was not meant to attack Joe because I knew him to be a personable guy with a colorful past too. I had no animosity against him but we tend to collectively forget these sorts of activities by dealers. Just like Jim Atwood, who I also knew in the 1960s, who was re-habilitated by some and when he died was considered some sort of hobby elder statesman. Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. Oh well...

What collectors (I am one of those) need to remember is that fake swords have been around a long time. We need to remember to be careful and to do our homework. Old collectors (like you and me and others) have memories of these old fakes that younger collectors have never seen. Do we have an obligation to pass that information on to younger collectors? Probably not and many old timers don't. Heck, many don't even have a computer. Should we? Yeah, I think so. That is why I commented on this thread.

In the end, each one of us has to develop a comfort level with what we collect. I am not a big fan of collecting by consensus but that seems to be what militaria forums are all about. Sometimes you get valuable information and sometimes real things get labeled as fakes. But, sometimes fakes are spotted by knowledgable collectors and somebody gets bad news. What we should remember is that there is always somebody out there making fakes to fool collectors. If they never fooled anybody with them, there would not be any fake swords.

Just my two-cents.

Jim Atwood may be considered an Elder Statesman by some collectors but when he fell ill he was negotiating with me to buy a Fledherrnhalle blade I had. He told me personaly that he had the original dies to make the hilt fittings and scabbard & that what he intended to do. Same old Jim, right up to the end. I wonder where those dies are today?

Orpo alludes to an unfortunate but true point: Often times perfectly original items are labelled as fake because they have one or more charachtaristics that are associated with fakes. I once bought a small lot of Third Reich medals from a vet who brought them back, got them right out of the footlocker in the attic. Took them to a gun show and all the "experts" pointed out all the reasons why they were no good. So the reality is that if a "consensus" of collectors doesnt like it its as good as a fake even if it isnt a fake. The value of these forums is to give a "comfort level" to someone so that they know what they are in for when they or their family attempts to sell the piece. Your education really starts when you try to sell something. Joe S

As most of you who know me, know that my collecting interests lies with TR and Weimar are Army sabers. I consider myself fortunate that my interests are in this area. It is a relatively safe area all things considered. To this pont, I have not definitevely come accross a repro saber that would fool me. The only saber of concern was the sword posted here a number of months back with the backward swas. I believe the jury is still out on this blade. If in fact the saber is a reproduction piece, then truly the fakers have breached the "boring" sword arena.

I've come accross some of the degens from the 60's, which all in all are not bad repros. The degens and fliegerschwerts of today are rather bad. I do however suspect that if prices continiue to climb, the fakers will pick 1 or 2 specific models to copy. It would be diffcult to attempt to re-create all 200ish models of standard TR army officer sabel.

Just my $.02. Im always on the look out. If you all have some examples of decent repro army officer sabers, by all means please post them. I could see them creating Prinz Eugens, justice/prison official because of the current values.

T

It is true that there can be occasions where a genuine item is labeled as a fake. But it depends on what types of items we are talking about. Some items are commonly faked. Others are not. And if we are looking at the percentages. We also know that it is more likely that a large percentage of the “exceptions to the rule” are in fact fakes.

That’s why I started the thread with such an obvious fake. There should not have been a doubt in anyone’s mind that the saber posted was a very modern creation. But the fact is that I’ve seen the same sabers for sale in the $500.00 to $900.00 range at shows. Not particularly “high ticket" items. But the money is wasted for what is basically junk with no historical value. My point being that there are a significant number of guys out there who considered themselves collectors. But they are not very knowledgeable, and can be easily mislead.

I also think that the dismountable swords like the Degens and Luftwaffe swords are much easier to fool around with and “upgrade”: With new or reworked grips, blades, hilts - whatever embellishment is needed to make the item sell for a higher price. Or to suit the personal whim of an owner, which is not that uncommon with daggers that have had parts swapped.

And while I believe that most dress army swords have escaped the attention of counterfeiters (at least for the moment). That is not a given. A significant number of the silver hilted and external langet added “SS” swords show physical evidence of being fooled around with. My point being that while whole new creations are less likely to succeed as being passed off as legitimate Third Reich items. I think that altered items are in a class by themselves. FP