UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Ultra Rare NSKK Honor Dagger

I think it is an unfortunate position we all find ourselves in.

It should never have come to this, but it has so the main thing now is to get it sorted out.I will keep you posted.

Ohhh on another note that was my 1500th post here

,,Congrats on your 1500th post Mongo!
You seem a true gentleman. (Like 99% of those who post here.) Easy to see that you are victim here.
Easily proved by the timing of your post of the Honor Dag!
I hope that everyone get's their just rewards in the Honor Dagger saga.
(Jail if warranted)
Cheers, (and GOOD LUCK!)
Paul

When this first appeared on WAF it was said to
be an SA honour dagger.Now it,s a NSKK honour
dagger,which is it? i did,nt see a reply to the
question about the blade. Who tuned it up?
see the before and after pics on WAF and imo
it has been ruined. Why can,t people leave
stuff alone,very sad business all round
Regards
John Rosser

quote:

Originally posted by Skynyrd:

quote:

Gottlieb

Gottlieb, a hands on exam is the norm before cash is sent, for any dealer/collector of note.
No doubt Craig could verify this - And Mr Ailsby, with his extensive writings, can be considered a collector of note.

No, no one is going to send anything to a forum "skynyrd" like me, or an "Iron Cross Mike" - But someone who is well known, that is how it goes.

Why do people send Don Boyle $8,000 TK rings without getting paid ?
Because they trust him, and know of his rep.
Ask Wittman if he wants to buy one of your daggers, he'd likely say "sure, send it in and I'll tell you what I'll pay once I see it".

Ailsby used his well known status to gain trust, which makes this setup that much more troubling, almost like a cop pulling an armed robbery.

I certainly agree on all points.
(I wouldn't think twice about sending my prized items FOR EVALUATION, to a surprising number of the names listed @ the bottom of the forum cover page. NONE of which I know from anywhere but here and WAF.
I may be too trusting, but I try to follow my gut.

It's a shame this dagger was not posted on THIS SITE first.This whole deal may have not happened.JMO

Mann, just a FYI on those whom "you trust" A very respected forum member here had an item thrown away in the garbage or "misplaced in the garbage" by one of these trusted people and or his team of experts. We are all human and make errors but I for one am very cautious about alowing anyone to inspect,photograph or otherwise paw at my items anymore unless I am there.
I refuse to comment on the other mess as its my understanding that the "other forum's" matters are not for topic here.
Bret Van Sant

Ed, or we could have just replaced the dealer's name with another!

It is all a matter of trust.

I know that I have sent some pretty expensive items to people just to have them see if they want it or to have it appraised.

I know of at least one dealer who, for the people he trusts, has sent out his items to see if they are wanted before asking for a penny. I have had one occasion where He gave me an item to take home with me to see if I really like it... and I was told that if I wanted to keep it, send him the money for it or send the item back to him.

Know who your friends are and try to figure out who your non-friends are. You may get burned on rare occasions, but, if you go with your gut, you should be fine.

It is a little like knowing who to lend your car to... some people I would lend my car without hesitation, others not in a million years.

And, on the question of who and why someone would 'tune' an item. Our hobby's dirty little secret is the degree to which this happens. If you have been around this hobby for more than 6 months, you likely know someone who can 'repair' items or who can get your items 'repaired'.

If you had an antique car, would you repair it or let it rust away? If I were keeping a dagger for my collection, I would consider some kinds of repairs... cracked or broken grips, bent scabbards, the list goes on. I faced this dilemna, like Mongo, on an SA Honour dagger which had lost virtually all of its gilding... do I regild or not since it had a great blade and was in otherwise great shape. I did not do this, but it was close.

If, however, an item is 'tuned' for resale and this is not disclosed up front, then I consider that a form of deceit, if not outright fraud. In Mongo's case, whatever he had done to his dagger was for his personal enjoyment. We may not agree that it was a good thing, but it was his choice to do this.

John

We are not talking about something rusting away here, the blade
was in aged but original condition.Then someone decided to slap
a bit of gold paint on it, or "regild" as some would say. The
owner can do what ever they like, but IMO people who do things
like this are destroying history.
Regards
John Rosser

When I bought this the blade had been polished somehow, the damascus had large shiny smooth spots on it, I dont know if that happened before Ailsbury got it or after. It needed treatment to bring the damascus out again, if it would not have been got at I would have left it. So its still the same blade, just cleaned up and now all one colour and the pattern is back.

Sorry if you dont like that but it really has got nothing to do with you. I bought the piece knowing something had to be done with the blade. Damascus Is great for restoration unlike normal blades. Im very pleased with it so dont care what you think. If you have a better one perhaps you should share it with us all.

I would have restored the blade, too. It came that way originally, so why not bring it back to its original appearance, especially since it was in poor condition? It's the same old differences of opinion as to whether to restore or leave "as is." There is no winner to this debate. It is a matter of personal choice and philosophy toward collectibles. I will say if it is to be restored, do it right. Also, when it comes time to sell or trade, disclose any restoration work, if known, to the buyer.

By the way the Patina had also been cleaned off by the time I bought it.

When I had seen the original picures of it on the other forum it looked real nice, but when I bought it the patina was gone. When I asked Chris what had happened to the blade he said it had been cleaned with a silver cloth!.

A lot of these have been re covered or re guilded.

I have heard of people redipping a damascus blade to bring out the grain in the blade.When someone owns an item they can do anything they want, kind of like taking a Model A Ford and painting it pink.As stated Mongo has bought the dagger did what he wanted to make it look better for himself and now finds out the problems encounted with it.I don't think he's happy with the situation as I know I wouldn't be if I could buy something like this.
This dagger will have a mark on it for the rest of it's days
As for the dealers when in the states it's a lot harder to hide if you are a known dealer.The price may have been the same but I think the payoff would have been quicker and we wouldn't be writing about this.The value was just brought out due to non payment. Dumb IMO

I am very confident it all will be sorted out in the next few weeks . It would not be right of me to go into details but its looking promising at the moment .

I agree with rosser. The dagger was not in that poor of a condition to have it whizzed like it has been. The value of the dagger has been decreased as a result. The best thing to do is to store it under ideal conditions and don't let its condition deteriorate further.

I envy your positive waves
Wish you the best of luck!!

And I would also have done "something" with the blade if it was not kept in an original condition with patina and the works...

Cheers,

I doubt if I would have modified the dagger myself, but can't judge for sure.
In any case, I don't see the point of these guys who insist on harping on & on about it.

So you wouldn't have done it, so you think its ruined, so you think it lowers its value.
So what ? Good for you guys then that it has nothing to do with you, and you will never have this dagger in your hands, let it rest sheesh.

Collectors send ancient Japanese swords to Japan all the time for expert repolishing by top swordsmiths, I've seen examples where the blade is many years old but will sport a repolish with a new scabbard and refinished grip.

Art dealers restore and clean old masters, Furniture dealers repolish fine furniture, clock dealers restore clocks, medal collectors don't care if a medal has been cleaned or not, I don't know what it is with Third Reich collectors

Nolan:
On this point you are correct. I spent part of the weekend visiting with Brian Quinn who is the President of the Japanese Sword Collectors Society. He was examining a Japanese sword that was for sale and commented that the first thing he would do if he owned it was to get the blade re-polished.
However; The problem with re-polishing a 3rd Reich political dagger blade is you'll lose a lot of the cross graining for sure and can also screw up the etch.
I guess the bottom line is some things are acceptable in one hobby and taboo in another. Classic cars are re-painted,waxed and cleaned with abandon while cleaning old coins is looked upon with distain. Art such as the Mona Lisa and the Sistine Chapel have been restored-- more than once.
Jim

I wouldn't go so far as to say "medal collectors don't care if a medal has been cleaned or not", that is too generalized of a statement, and not accurate.
Some certainly do care,that would largely depend on each individuals definition of what constitutes a "cleaning".

If it just a dusting with a soft cloth, of course no one is going to care about that.
But if they use acetone on the frame and beading of an EK2, for instance, to get it all nice, bright shiny new looking, then alot of guys wouldn't touch a piece like that.
Some would, but thats why cleaning generally lowers the value of a collectible metal piece, be it a coin, dagger or medal.
By doing so, a whole segment of potential buyers , the purists who want unmessed with pieces, are eliminated as potential buyers.
Less of a demand, a lower price.

I have my own very strong opinion on this.... I have sold some very nice damascus daggers 3 Tigers only to see one later on a dealers table with gilding (that it originally NEVER had) on the trademark.. I can always tell if the blade has been reworked... I have seen many reworked honor daggers and I guess some people are fine with it... Regards: Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Skynyrd:
I wouldn't go so far as to say "medal collectors don't care if a medal has been cleaned or not", that is too generalized of a statement, and not accurate.
Some certainly do care,that would largely depend on each individuals definition of what constitutes a "cleaning".

If it just a dusting with a soft cloth, of course no one is going to care about that.
But if they use acetone on the frame and beading of an EK2, for instance, to get it all nice, bright shiny new looking, then alot of guys wouldn't touch a piece like that.
Some would, but thats why cleaning generally lowers the value of a collectible metal piece, be it a coin, dagger or medal.
By doing so, a whole segment of potential buyers , the purists who want unmessed with pieces, are eliminated as potential buyers.
Less of a demand, a lower price.

Sorry I should have been more specific about the medals, I don't collect TR medals I collect 19th century British campaign medals which are generally made of sterling silver, it was these I was referring to, I mean you wouldn't polish a VC for example, sorry for the mix up.

I do hoever fel that the term 'Patina' is wrongly used by many TR collectores who simply don't knoew the difference between true 'Patina' which is the result of TLC without overly cleaning and 70 years of gunk, one example that particularly struck me when I came back to TR collecting was in the description of an SS dagger by Tom Wittman "the solid nickle fittings exhibit that greenish look that collectors love" well gents that 'greenish' look is the beginnings of corrosion or verdigris which if not corrected will eat into those solid nickle fittings you love so much.

Nolans right ...its honestly more neglect than anything...take care of what you have and keep it from any harm.
Regards,Jimmy

I just want to know one thing: where was I when this dagger came out of the woodwork! No doubt asleep at the wheel, or arguing about NSKKs or something - it's the type of dagger I would fly across the country to buy!

quote:

it's the type of dagger I would fly across the country to buy!

That is what I find as a correct solution when selling/buying such a dagger. Inhand inspection at the sellers place not sending item without beeing paid first....

I agree Gottlieb, if you have a piece this valuable to sell dealers will come to you

What a horrible mess. I hope that the "thief" is forced to pay the original owner the full price paid by Mongo for this item and All court/and attorney fees for all parties involved, and Mongo gets to keep it. Best of luck to all involved except the "thief".

quote:

Originally posted by EdGs:
What a horrible mess. I hope that the "thief" is forced to pay the original owner the full price paid by Mongo for this item and All court/and attorney fees for all parties involved, and Mongo gets to keep it. Best of luck to all involved except the "thief".

The price paid by Mongo is immaterial to the original owner- the original owner made a deal with Ailsby, not Mongo. Both Ailsby and the seller should be held to that deal.

All I have to say is that this Ailsby scumbag is the luckiest guy in the world......If he would have done this to me at the very least I would have crossed the pond and kick the sh.t out of him, stolen a bunch of his stuff and dropped it in the Thames. Crooks don't call the police...You know what if you buy the ticket I'd be glad to do it for you...Send me a PM I haven't been on vacation for a while.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:

quote:

Originally posted by EdGs:
What a horrible mess. I hope that the "thief" is forced to pay the original owner the full price paid by Mongo for this item and All court/and attorney fees for all parties involved, and Mongo gets to keep it. Best of luck to all involved except the "thief".

The price paid by Mongo is immaterial to the original owner- the original owner made a deal with Ailsby, not Mongo. Both Ailsby and the seller should be held to that deal.

May not be at all immaterial, if Ailsby used his well known status to make his offer as a form of appraisal.
We don't know the details, but most likely he made quite a pitch, and said something along the lines of "Its worth about $15,000 so I'll give you $10,000", which is clearly not the advice of an honest expert, but a scantless scam artist.

Also, holding up payment and shirking contact for 1.5 years should be grounds to void any deal in any circumstances,

quote:

Originally posted by Skynyrd:


May not be at all immaterial, if Ailsby used his well known status to make his offer as a form of appraisal.
We don't know the details, but most likely he made quite a pitch, and said something along the lines of "Its worth about $15,000 so I'll give you $10,000", which is clearly not the advice of an honest expert, but a scantless scam artist.

I disagree. The seller himself stated that he'd received several PMs telling him it was worth $10,000 plus. There are posts on his original thread about the dagger advising him not to sell it for less than $30,000, another stating $35,000-$40,000, advice to contact Tom Wittmann and a a post linking him to this site concerning High Leader daggers. He also stated that he was a collector, so he wasn't some defenseless widow or aging veteran. Part of selling items is being informed about what you are selling.

For example, I recently liquidated my U.S. Purple Heart collection. I set the prices and the collection sold fairly quickly. Some of those medals have already been resold for prices two to three times my asking price. Should I be upset and demand the difference? IMHO, no.

quote:

Also, holding up payment and shirking contact for 1.5 years should be grounds to void any deal in any circumstances,

As you've said, none of us know the details,only mongo, Ailsby (who I don't know from Adam)and the original owner of the piece. All we are seeing are posts on the internet, a lot of speculation, jailhouse lawyering, some internet heroes threatening violence.

Ailby should pay the guy the agreed price in full and any incurred expenses trying to recoup such payment.

I also agree that if the deal was made, then that should be the price to the original seller. Payment should have been made at that time. Done deal.
Taking an item without paying for it is theft and the item is now a stolen item. The item can be returned to the original owner even if a third party bought it legit. The third party is now out his money and the item he paid for. Another theft.
IMO Ailsby should be forced to give up all money gained. Had he paid for the item in the beginning, no more could be done. He would have made a huge profit, albeit deceitfully.
Even though it will cost more money, I would see about putting some sort of lien on him until this is resolved. I wish you the best, Mongo.

Ed

,,Say you sell a car, you hold title until paid for, a long time, eighteen months!?, (you repo the car!.) It never legally changed ownership.
That is, unless the timid C.J.A. has proof of payment for said goods.
Just my slant.
That said, I'm still for Mongo.
also, I LIKE Andy's way of thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:

quote:

Originally posted by Skynyrd:


May not be at all immaterial, if Ailsby used his well known status to make his offer as a form of appraisal.
We don't know the details, but most likely he made quite a pitch, and said something along the lines of "Its worth about $15,000 so I'll give you $10,000", which is clearly not the advice of an honest expert, but a scantless scam artist.

I disagree. The seller himself stated that he'd received several PMs telling him it was worth $10,000 plus. There are posts on his original thread about the dagger advising him not to sell it for less than $30,000, another stating $35,000-$40,000, advice to contact Tom Wittmann and a a post linking him to this site concerning High Leader daggers. He also stated that he was a collector, so he wasn't some defenseless widow or aging veteran. Part of selling items is being informed about what you are selling.

No question but the original seller was naive.
Ainsby played up the fact that he is noted, people will tend to trust more a guy whome they can google his name and see his books for sale on Amazon and Barned and Noble, more so than some advice from an anonymous "SS Steve" on an internet forum.
Often, people are aware that they can get more $$ if they hunt around, apparently this guy thought dealing with someone who is well known and seemingly well regarded was worth accepting less.
I'd like to see how Ainsby played this up, I bet he laid it on thick as cement - And to me, callous dishonestly like that most certainly is a factor, I don't care if the victim was a little old vets widow or Craig Gottlieb.

quote:

For example, I recently liquidated my U.S. Purple Heart collection. I set the prices and the collection sold fairly quickly. Some of those medals have already been resold for prices two to three times my asking price. Should I be upset and demand the difference? IMHO, no.

We've all sold things that people have turned around for a profit.
If someone didn't think it was a good deal and they stood to gain, it wouldn't have sold in the first place.
I've bought things that I turned right around for profit, who hasn't ?
I'll tell people I buy from flat out "I can probably get around $250 for this, so I'll give you $175" Or maybe $200.
I explain to them yeah, you can probably get more if you find the right guy.
So do they want to wait around and find the right guy, or get the $$ right now, and accept a bit less ?
Most will opt for cash in hand ... Time is money, and time spent trying to unload something is wasted time.
That is reasonable, a 400-500% profit is not.

I'm sure the margins on your example were no where near this honor dagger ... Plus you seem to be discounting the fact that he never even got paid the scantless price he was offered.

quote:

Also, holding up payment and shirking contact for 1.5 years should be grounds to void any deal in any circumstances,

quote:

As you've said, none of us know the details,only mongo, Ailsby (who I don't know from Adam)and the original owner of the piece. All we are seeing are posts on the internet, a lot of speculation, jailhouse lawyering, some internet heroes threatening violence.

Ailby should pay the guy the agreed price in full and any incurred expenses trying to recoup such payment.

I don't agree, I see the original deal as completely void due to the buyers shameless conduct - Morally, and more importantly legally, there is no deal.
I do agree that talk of violence/illegal activites on forums is not very smart.

Hi Bongo, Wow what a mess. IMHO the dagger could get lost? Folks are getting crazy about all this TR stuff especially rare items.

Others: Opinions any estimates on the fair wholesale and retail value of this dagger ?

"Value" is speculative at best, especially when dealing with rare pieces. The best definition of value IMHO is when the seller's lowest price meets the buyer's highest offer.

quote:

Originally posted by Skynyrd:



No question but the original seller was naive.
Ainsby played up the fact that he is noted, people will tend to trust more a guy whome they can google his name and see his books for sale on Amazon and Barned and Noble, more so than some advice from an anonymous "SS Steve" on an internet forum.

I certainly do see why someone would (at that time) give Mr Ailsby's offer more weight than an anonymous poster on the internet. But, given the interest and comments generated by the dagger, the seller should have seen the disparity between the offer and some of the other numbers quoted and investigated further. A second, third or even fourth opinion would have not been out of line here.

quote:

I'm sure the margins on your example were no where near this honor dagger ...

Dollar wise, nowhere close. Percentage wise, not far off 200-300%

quote:

Plus you seem to be discounting the fact that he never even got paid the scantless price he was offered.

Not at all. I think it's fairly obvious that the seller hasn't received his money, for whatever reason. Mr Ailsby claims he has sent a partial payment. Is it fraud? It is it an honest mistake? Something in-between? We don't know.

quote:

Also, holding up payment and shirking contact for 1.5 years should be grounds to void any deal in any circumstances,

I would agree if Mr. Ailsby was still in possession of the dagger. Mongo- who I think is acting honorably in trying to settle this situation- has the dagger. He's also altered the dagger, which, since he didn't know the circumstances, was his right as the believed he was the rightful owner. Did the alteration enhance the daggers value? If so, should the seller compensate Mongo for enhancing the resale value of the dagger. Did the alteration hurt the value of the dagger? If so, should Mongo compensate the seller? A sticky situation indeed.

It sounds like Ailsby is the one who mucked up the blade. So, if it has already been "destroyed", I wouldn't have that much of a problem restoring it.

But to everyone who likes their daggers to look brand new, if you are going to reguild the blade, you might as well sand and restain the grip. And replace all that old, worn leather with new. Right? It looks rather odd to have that nice, shiny, new-looking blade and everything else looking old.

As for comparing TR collectors to others. if someone has a Model A with original paint or a Louis XIV piece of furniture with original paint/stain, it would be worth a fortune. Don't believe me? Ask an antiques dealer or watch the many antique shows on cable. I've seen many cases where an expert informs the proud owner that they have destroyed an item and ruined its value be stripping off all that old 200 year old paint and putting on a nice coat of Sherwin Williams latex.

What about the Declaration of Independence? It is so faded it is almost unreadable. How about a new re-inking so we can read that thing!?

Do you guys dip your coins into that crap that used to be advertised on TV? Well, you have just trashed them. If you had an ancient lamp with burned residue, do you scrap all of that off so it looks brand new?

Any collectible item with historical value should be preserved -- not restored. Restoration should only be done when an item is in poor condition and to stop deterioration. The Mona Lisa (and other paintings) will crumble to pieces if not cared for. They are carefully preserved by experts. They are not repainted so that they look like Da Vinci just put down his brush.

If you want something that looks brand new, there are plenty of repros out there.

I am in the process of re-blueing an old Remington Model 121 Fieldmaster. This IMO is one of the finest pump 22 cal rifles ever made. While this 60 year old gun is in sound shooting condition the remaining finish consists of faded blueing and rust. Obviously the previous owner(s) neglected it.
I suppose I could have just left it looking like a piece of crap and if it was just slightly worn instead of showing "honest wear" that's exactly what I'd do. However it's well past that point. Cars of historical value are restored all the time and this usually increases their value as well as preserving a piece of history.
Jim

The mere rarity would stop me from touching the piece. Now it will always have features that the original did not exhibit. Since the way they guild today is probably much different then 1935-36. When I believe they still used Mercury to guild? But maybe not?
On the other hand though doing it to a beater plain Jane SA, sure fix it up make it look good again. But they aren't worth $30,000 either. All in all, its his dagger or at least he thought it was his and he thought he had the right to which ownership entitles you. That is to do whatever you want with your stuff whether "Joe Blow" agrees or not whether its right or wrong. I hope it gets resolved for Mongo and the original owners sake but in most places they don't take into account your ignorant's to the law. Whether you knew it was stolen or not may not matter to the "Law". It was stolen through the non-payment of Chris, therefore it was stolen property which means in most places it cannot be legally exchanged. Making the true owner still the veteran and everyone else involve the criminals. I pray for the sake of Mongo that everything turns out okay since he seem truly innocent of wrongdoing here. I also hope the original owner gets full restitution as well. Then in just course that Chris gets what he fully deserves jail time.