UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum SS Eagle and Skull

Could I have your opinions on the ss eagle and skull? They are both marked RZM in a circle and then lightening bolts and 475/42. Here is a picture of the front of the eagle.
SSman

Back of the eagle. One prong came off but I still have it.
SSman

Here I tried to get a shot of the makers mark but not a very good picture.
SSman

Front shot of the skull
SSman

Back shot of the skull
SSman

These are pathetic reproductions.

Please forgive me if this sounds harsh, but you really need to go do your homework. Start by doing a little reading of previous threads on this and other forums to learn what originals look like, what materials were used, and how they were marked. Had you done a search or two, you would quickly have learned that the number 475/42 was never even used on original skulls at all and no skull by any maker was ever marked with SS runes (please stop calling them lightning bolts!).

You know Brad. I sure wished I would have looked at the other threads before I posted this one! I seen the reaction you gave another person on a different thread. A simple Yes or no would have enough but you go to extremes with your replies. I will call them lightening bolts if I please as long as you don't have the moderator suspend me. In fact I think I will suspend myself. Not all of us are think we know it all like you! Goodbye and goodriddens. It is people like you with your smart a!! replies that make this site not worth coming back to.

Brad. Didn't mean to get upset like that but you have to realize this is a forum for beginners to! I thought this forum was also for people to learn and not for all experts. This is the last this forum will her from me and I wish the moderators could take all of my posts off every section of this site?

SSman, please cool down. nothing wrong with bwanek1 comments. at least he helped you with your query? anyway, for those forum members who are not aware of the skull and eagles makers :


SKULL MAKERS

RZM D.&S.M. GES.GESCH. Deschler & Sohn
RZM 52 Deschler & Sohn
RZM M1/52 Deschler & Sohn
RZM 254/42 Deschler & Sohn
RZM 499/41 Fritz Zimmermann
RZM M1/24 Overhoff & Cie.
GES.GESCH. E. W. Assmann & Sohn
S.P.40 Unknown


EAGLE MAKERS

RZM 394-35
RZM M1/52
RZM M1/17
RZM SS 155/36
RZM SS 155/42
Unmarked
RZM M1/72
RZM SS 499/42 M1/72
RZM SS M1/167
RZM M1/8
RZM SS 475/39
RZM SS 475/42

We all make mistakes,look at my posts,I have bought some crap,and been told so,but by asking for help and advice have progressed to buy some 'good'stuff,there is nothing like finding a genuine piece,that you will have to pay top dollar for and holding it in your hands,knowing it is right,you can then start looking for more,and refering to your good piece.I have used,Lakeside Trader,Bill Shea at Ruptured Duck and Chip Gambino,Tom Wittman and The Old Brigade in the UK and found them all helpful and trustworthy.Pay for a piece that comes with a return policy and you will not go wrong.If the price seems to good to be true,it normally is.Don't get disheartened,learn!
Regards,Grip (Ivan)

quote:

Originally posted by SSman:
Brad. Didn't mean to get upset like that but you have to realize this is a forum for beginners to! I thought this forum was also for people to learn and not for all experts. This is the last this forum will her from me and I wish the moderators could take all of my posts off every section of this site?

The last thing I would wish to do is discourage a beginner. This hobby is challenging enough without my making it any harder. This forum should be a place where we all find some assistance wih overcoming those challenges. If my comments came off as curt or demeaning, I am truly sorry.

I believe you simply became somewhat the focus of my frustration that many see these forums as a substitute for doing their own research and studying their hobby. Rather than buying the books and reviewing the old threads on the forums to increase their own knowledge and expertise, many feel that they can skip that and just use the forum as nothing more than a free source for expert opinions. As a result, we see the same fakes over and over and it becomes frustrating, particularly when it seems that the person asking the question simply didn't take the time to even try a simple search of the forum first. Still, no one should feel that reluctant to ask questions here. None of us knows everythng and we are all here to learn and share.

However, I still ask that you not call them "lightning bolts!"

Come on SSman, don't be like that. Its very hard from the PC to get the tone or attitude sometimes from another poster. He wasn't really coming down hard on you, and you know you learned from this..

One of the biggest problems a beginner has here at this site OR any other site, is they don't use the 'Search' function. Alot has been deleted here but there's still much good info on on the archived pages...

I know they actually are and use 'runes' but I like Lightning Bolts too!

SSman,Dont feel bad at least you GOT a reply, better than being ignored.Take the reply with a grain of salt,you found out what you needed to know,I personally have learned a lot from these guys.

dont forget.. just because you know the correct rzm numbers. does not mean its good. they faked them too. you have to know the original metals used and knowing die struck versus cast. its hard to learn these without studying known originals in hand..tom

Just my 2 cents, but by calling them lighting bolts, makes it sound like reference to Aryan Brotherhood in the U.S. Prison system who do use double lighting bolts as there symbol.

Runes! Everybody happy?

SSman, wasn't trying to bust on ya, remark was just FYI type thing.

I know OKCMike. Just trying to satisfy the others. This is one of the main reasons I stay away from ss items. I bought the eagle and skull at a garage sale for 50 cents.
SSman

technically sig runen...

Just out of curiosity, is the list shown from a wartime published list of RZM accepted manufacturers or is the list collector based on examples found. I am not trying to stir the pot, just wondering if what we accept has a scientific basis or is more empirical in nature.

exactly Mr. Jerry, there have been a few off the list that were vet obtained but we have the pompous know-it-alls on this forum who have taken all the fun out of true collecting, that's why I prefer the WAF to this forum

quote:

Originally posted by drbill:
...there have been a few off the list that were vet obtained...

Really? I believe you are misinformed.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Jerry:
Just out of curiosity, is the list shown from a wartime published list of RZM accepted manufacturers or is the list collector based on examples found.

Hi, Jerry.

Unfortunately, there is no such single period documentation source which lists which makers were ever contracted to manufacture which insignia in which years using which markings. There are, of course, listings of manufacturers authorized to manufacture insignia of some sort or another by the RZM and the manufacturer code assigned to each, but not which insignia each was under contract to produce. Also, keep in mind that manufacturers were under contract at diferent times directly with the SS, rather than the RZM. Accordingly, various insignia from the same manufacturer will display an RZM code, an SS contract number, or, in one rare case (the Zimmermann M1/72 499/42 eagle), both.

Brad

Thanks Brad,

You have always been very helpful.
again, I was not trying to stir the pot here, (or more appropriately 'kick the hornets nest') nor do I condone the name calling that goes on. This is obviously a touchy subject.

In all my years of serious collecting, I have only had a few SS cap pieces turn up from vets, and they have been ones on the list. It does surprise me though that so much insignia over a fairly long time frame was made by only a few manufacturers, as compared to say SS daggers. And I don't understand why they would make "SS #" markings on eagles but not on skulls, but I am still a student of all of this, so my mind is open.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Jerry:
I don't understand why they would make "SS #" markings on eagles but not on skulls...

To be clear for everyone, skulls were produced which were marked with SS contract numbers, as opposed to RZM codes. Examples are the 254/42 Deschler and the 499/41 Zimmermann. Why they did not use the SS runes along with the numbers to distinguish it as an SS code is a mystery. I also do not know why, when using SS contract numbers, they still used the RZM symbol. There is much we will likely never know regarding these insignia.

Upon taking a second look, I realized that there are a few missing from the list above. This is my current list:

SKULLS:

Unmarked, Deschler & Sohn
RZM D.&S.M. GES. GESCH., Deschler & Sohn
RZM GES. GESCH., Deschler & Sohn
RZM 52, Deschler & Sohn
RZM M1/52, Deschler & Sohn
RZM 254/42, Deschler & Sohn
RZM 499/41, Fritz Zimmermannn
RZM M1/24, Overhoff & Cie.
S.P.40, Unknown, possibly Overhoff & Cie.
Unmarked, E. W. Assmann & S�hne
GES. GESCH., E. W. Assmann & S�hne

EAGLES:

RZM 394-35, Unknown
RZM M1/52, Deschler & Sohn
RZM M1/17, E. W. Assmann & S�hne
RZM SS 155/36, E. W. Assmann & S�hne
RZM SS 155/38, E. W. Assmann & S�hne
RZM SS 155/42, E. W. Assmann & S�hne
Unmarked, E. W. Assmann & S�hne
RZM M1/24, Overhoff & Cie.
RZM M1/72, Fritz Zimmermannn
RZM SS 499/42 M1/72, Fritz Zimmermannn
RZM SS M1/167, Augustin Hicke
RZM M1/8, Ferdinand Wagner
RZM SS 475/39, Ferdinand Wagner
RZM SS 475/42, Ferdinand Wagner
E.S. PF., Unknown, possibly Eugen Schmidh�ussler, Pforzheim

Informative post Brad,good for us all too!
Just think these sets are now costing as much has an M33!,,,,,,,,Mine Gott

Hi Guys, quick question. Is it possible that there were original skulls made with no maker marks on the back??

quote:

Originally posted by John Jozef:
Hi Guys, quick question. Is it possible that there were original skulls made with no maker marks on the back??

Take another look at the list I included two posts above and note that there are two original unmarked skulls. One was produced by Assmann and another is commonly attributed to Deschler. However, I have come to conclude that that particular style was actually not made by Deschler and the actual maker remains unknown.

Brad

Well I've just learned something, and it's a hard one but Cest La Vi, it's a valuable lesson.

So this means the 'Jeweller made german silver eagle and skull' I have is suspect it seems.

The skull is marked, you guessed it "RZM SS 380/40"

But the Eagle is RZM M17/17. Any hope for the Eagle? Pics attached

Well youve opened that old can of worms again!!
What would be the odds of a High Leader having a set of these, made in silver at the designated SS RZM factory for the manufacture of these cap devices??? Its not like they resemble the standard ones.
The strange thing is that a jeweller although able to copy these,whats the point of the codes????
What do other members think
Some of these silver devices could very well have been made who knows but its doubtful unless we have 100% provenance!

Yes, it's difficult to argue with the logic of your point about the factory marking. I'm no expert but I was a lot less expert when I purchased these so don't hold any ill will.

Even the most accomplished experts in this hobby sometimes sell items on based on a certain amount of faith it seems.

Thanks for your view. KM

IMO, These last examples are produced to deceive the curious amateur collector. Peddled by crooks who play dumb when or if confronted.
These insignia will "speak", if genuine.
(mine do)
right or wrong?
Cheers, Pauli

quote:

Originally posted by Kriegsmariner:
Yes, it's difficult to argue with the logic of your point about the factory marking. I'm no expert but I was a lot less expert when I purchased these so don't hold any ill will.

Even the most accomplished experts in this hobby sometimes sell items on based on a certain amount of faith it seems.

Thanks for your view. KM

No "accomplished expert" in this hobby sold that bogus "jeweler" set as original.

Likewise faith is what causes people to buy fakes; knowledge enables people to avaid fakes.