UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Early Hilt - Late Blade

Here's an Eickhorn Blucher currently on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-GERMAN-ARMY-OFFICERS-LIONS-HEA...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Brass hilt with brass wire, indicating early production, and a late "over the shoulder squirrel" logo on the blade.

Thoughts?

Using up old parts?

The DRP stamping under the crossguard also evidences that the sword is an earlier model as well. She's a little worn and missing quite a bit of her gilting. Not to mention the blade looks a tiny on the salty side and the hilt oxidation doesn't help either I'd pass on her for a better example.

T

Hi Tom,

No, I wouldn't buy a sword in that condition. It just stuck me strange seeing a late period blade on an early hilt. Have you seen others like this?

I don't think we have allot of sword enthusiasts here, you would think one of the forum elite might chime in. Or, maybe, there is NO answer..

Best..

Mike

The Deutsche Reichs Patent stamping was found on the Eikhorn hilts prior to the Ges Gesch stamp.

I guess the Tm is post 1941. Intersting point you raise regading the blade. I suppose the blade could be a replacement or perhaps its some kind of parts sword. It doesn't really look it however. Beside, re-peening the pommel is rather difficult to do well on a lionhead. From the photos, it doesn't look re-peened.

Another possibility is that Eickhorn had an old hilt lying around that they slapped on after 1941. I really just don't know.

Perhpas someone else can speak to it.

Do we know for sure that a brass hilt indicates "early " production and the aluminum hilt indicates "later " production? What is the evidence that supports that conclusion? I agree there seems to be a pattern that brass hilts are commonly found with the Weimar or early 1930s trademark, and aluminum hilts are often found with the later trademarks,but I dont know that I can conclusively state from that observation that aluminum hilts necessarily came later than brass. I believe some of the original sales material describes certain models sabers as "light" models, which I always assumed meant aluminum hilt. I dont know that I can put my finger on it right away, and I may be wrong about it, but thats what I recall. Joe S

I would say the blade is original to the hilt. Frugal Germans using up old stock.. An interesting variation.. Too bad about the condition.

Mike

Thanks you guys, I appreciate it..

This is not unknown. I currently have a von Stein pattern with a brass hilt and the post 41 over the shoulder squirrel tm. I used to have a Derflinger and a Scharnhorst pattern with the same brass hilt/late tm anomaly. Now I kind of wish I hadn't sold them. They are neat and not easy to find.

The three swords I own/owned have not been altered in any way and were originally made that way. One can speculate that these later (based on tm) swords may have been special ordered with brass hilts instead of aluminum.

I'm fairly sure that Eickhorn as well as other major manufacturors had some 'better' quality parts available on request at extra cost. Why wouldn't they? They offered such niceties such as extra cost spoecial order etched blades, damascus blades, gilt and blued panels, etc. Why noy better materials hilts? It's only good business sense even in wartime to supply the paying customer what he wants.

Just some thoughts.

Tony

I am not sure the brass is necessarily better than the alum from the orginal owner's point of view. Brass to be more stable over the long run, but we as collectors are talking about timeframes longer than the career or any original owner. I have a strong preference for brass hilted sabers because I believe they are less susceptible to corrosion but I also have one or two that are in very good condition and the gilt finish , when it is well preserved, apprears to be brighter on alum hilts than it is on brass. I agree that most companies would honor a buyers request for special order items, be it brass or alum hilts, and I also am sure they would provide a little bit better quality for a premium price. However, I question the assumption that brass hilts are necessarily earier than alum. Joe S

Joe- good points. I have mixed feelings toward barss vs. aluminum hilts. Based on what I have, I can say that with 100% certainty, that aluminum hilted sabers have overwhelmingly retained thier gilt better than many of the brass examples I have. Based again on what I have in my collection, I am certain that the majority of aluminum hilted sabers were produced later than the brass hilted counterparts. I think it may be provincial to assume that this rule is exclusive. But overall, I think it is relatively applicable.

Given the two most recent posts above I would love to see an original Eickhorn aluminum hilted sword with the early double oval Eickhorn tm. In the 40+ years I've been chasing German edged weapons I have yet to see that combination.

The progression from copper based alloys such as brass, tombak and nickle silver to the less strategic metals such as aluminum, zinc and white metal was due to the build up of the German war machine in the late 1930s. Germany not having a readily available internal source for these important metals for war material started to ration it's use. This was fist evident in the party daggers of the SA, SS, NSKK with nickle silver being substituted with the later fittings. Army and 1st Luft daggers went thru a shorter period of evolution from brass based to zinc alloy based hilt fittings. The Naval daggers lasted a bit longer, probably by being hidebound traditionalists, but even they began to appear late with steel and alloy fittings. The steel hilts used in dress bayonets and HJ knives early on were also changed to a lesser metal alloy.

During the first World War the Germans also began substituting iron or mild steel for their dress swords as their need for strategic metals grew desparate.

So the precident of going from noble metals to lesser ones was set a couple decades earlier as the Germans again prepared for war.

Tony.

Tony,

I own a cherry Prinz Eugen with a long grosser size blade marked with the Eickhorn 1941 - whatever over the shoulder mark. If anybody is interested in seeing images, I'll shoot some..

Mike

Mike ,

Thanks for the offer. A Prinz Eugen would be an aluminum/zinc alloy based hilt with either the 35-41 tm or the over the shoulder squirrel tm of post 41.

What I was interested in seeing is a later non brass hilt Eickhorn sword with the early double oval tm of 33-34.

Tony

My recollection is that some of the original Eickhorn sales material describes some of the army sabers as "Leicht" which I assume neans light as in lightweight. I will try to find them and post some scans. If thats what it means, then it appears that some were available in alum or brass. Joe S

Here is a plate from an early catalog, note the oval tm. Joe S

from another catalog. Joe S

Joe,

I'm fairly familiar with the Eickhorn catalog. I collect Eickhorn edged weapons for the variety they produced over a long period of time. My collection encompasses the Imperial era thru the most recent production at the end of the 20th century.

Unfortunately the pictures in the catalog are just that, pictures. They are in some cases illustrations that are an artist drawn represenation of a style that was being offered. The pictures can in no way be used to determine if the hilt is of brass or the later wartime alloys. This acessment must be done in hand.

My quest is to actually see a genuine,later aluminum/zinc alloy type hilt with the early double oval tm.

So far no such example has surfaced to my knowledge.

On the flip side I have seen in hand an all aluminum construction Eickhorn naval dagger with the post 41 over the shoulder squirrel tm. Pommel, crossguard and scabbard were all of satin gilted aluminum. This was a piece acquired at the Eickhorn factory by a US soldier at or shortly after cecession of hostilities in Germany.

IMO the earlier TR era swords were a continuation of the craftsmanship that was evident in the Imperial and Weimar eras, including the use of brass and tombak as principle metals used in their construction.

Tony

My limited knowledge of German comes into play here. I posted the photos because the text describes the sabers as "Leicht" or "Leichter" models, which I realise could mean a lot of things and I am not sure exactly what it means. I will leave the interpretation up to someone who knows more about it than I do. I dont recall ever seeing a saber with the oval TM with an aluminum hilt either and I have been collecting since the late 1960s. I am only saying that the text could be an indication that lightweight hilts were available depending on what the best or correct interpretation is. I am sure that some of our members or viewers can provide an accurate translation. Joe S

Joe,

The "lightwieght" wording can indicate either a lighter sword made of aluminum or a smaller edged weapon that is lighter in weight. For instance the statement "Dasselbe in leichter Ausf�hrung" could describe a lighter weight form in size or material. This could be accomplished with either a narrower blade or an aluminum hilt for instance. In the case of a P guard Wehrmacht sword it might be logical to assume that it could be an alloy or aluminum hilt instead of the heavier brass.

Not much help I am afraid.