UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum grip color

quote:

Dave makes some really excellent observations. I had (temporarily) forgotten that these were not “spec” sheets, but sales tools. And like so many other forms of advertising are not always faithful reproductions.

Then why is "weisser Trolongriff" considered prove that all grips started out white?

Houston is right about old author taken as the final word. The Die Klinge translate in Johnson's would have you believe "Elfenbein-Imitation griff" means white grip.

I don't mean to sound ignorant but why hasn't anyone just asked one of the surviving members of the TR? I know that there aren't many left but my dad served in ww2, He's 83 and he remembers everything about his time there.

This picture should resolve everything. Orange grip Luft with a picture of the Luft with orange grip on the original box...

Fitzer,would that box be the famous reverse grip Luft dagger that is worn on the rightside and not on the left

Reading "reds" post rang a bell... Got me thinking about the reason I started accumulating this stuff.. My Father brought back several items from the war, an Eickhorn army dagger with the original hangers and knott, a WKC single engraved dress bayonet, a cased Mother's cross,lots of silver trophies from France. He returned in 1945 and the Eickhorn Army dagger grip was ORANGE then and it still is. The color has never changed.. You will NEVER convince me that these grips were all originally produced in white then changed into these deep yellow and orange, almost red colors in just a few years.. This is, without question, conclusive proof these grips were NOT all produced in white. I can't believe I didn't see this sooner.......

I remain a skeptic. I don't nor will I ever believe in the "changing color" theory. I saw a quote once that makes sense to me as I've seen it applied in so many ways......

"Statistics can be used to establish any preconceived conclusions." Other translations would say, "Dazzle 'em with bull shXX" or "Dog and Pony Show" or "Overload 'em with numbers"........

Just my opinion, but I've stuck it with my entire life and have found no reason to think otherwise. Not trying to stir up anything, only the way I personally feel and will stay with the belief.

Everyone is free to believe whatever pleases them. Various engineering texts mention color problems/issues with phenolic resins. But as I am certain would be brought out in a discussion of same, they are not focused on Third Reich era German dagger grips, but addressing phenolic resins in general.

quote:

Then why is "weisser Trolongriff" considered proof that all grips started out white?

Houston is right about old author taken as the final word. The Die Klinge translated in Johnson's would have you believe "Elfenbein-Imitation griff" means white grip.

"weisser Trolongriff", as was originally cited from the WKC catalog, either means ‘white Trolon grip’ or the phrase was mistranslated. I was not born speaking German, and am not that proficient in the language, and would be more than happy to defer to a better translation if I’ve committed an error. At face value to me it indicates a white grip. Not an orange* one. Or a yellow* one.

* In fields other than dagger collecting: period phenolic collectors use the terms “butterscotch” (yellow) or “pumpkin” (orange), and a "deep pumpkin" (reddish/orange) to describe what were formerly (as manufactured) “ivory” colored artifacts.

I’m also a little confused just where “Elfenbein-Imitation griff” (Griff aus Elfenbeinimitation) fits into the discussion. My translation of it is: 'imitation ivory grip'. And “ivory” usually refers to an off white color sometimes with a very slight hint of yellow mimicking the animal sources the natural material comes from. And I don't recall off-white being excluded as a legitimate period grip color.

Instead of trying to prove that the grips changed color. Perhaps the approach should have been to let those who believe that period cast phenolic resins did not or cannot change color should have been to let them try and prove their point of view from an engineering or scientific basis, instead of the other way around??

But like I said at the beginning, everyone is free to believe whatever pleases them. FP

Does anyone know what the grip on the Hermann Goering Luftwaffe General Degen is made of?

The photographs shown in Wittmans book on pages 363,364 and 369 show the degen with what looks to be an orange colored grip. The color seems to match very well with the specially made orange-brown leather frog, scabbard and boots to go with his pale powder blue uniform.

Also, on page 370, there is a period color photo of Goering wearing the degen, and the grip also looks orange. Wittman describes the grip in this period photo as "the deep yellow color of the grip can easily be discerned,..."

The orange/yellow grip looks like it was selected to match the rest of the ensemble. If it started out as white and changed color, I'm sure the Reichsmarschall would have had it replaced.

Earlier in the text, the book states changes in design to the 2nd Model Luftwaffe General's degen, included a grip configuration change "to reflect a solid trolon/celluloid type of yellow color...", so presumably the grip was trolon.

Perhaps not real proof of anything, but interesting. Maybe the grip was 'aged' to the correct color if it started out as white, or perhaps it was orange/yellow when it was made.

I also saw on a dealers site last year a couple of 2nd luft daggers with dark orange grip color on the obverse, and a definite change to a yellow color on the reverse, which to me indicates that certain conditions allow color change to take place - exactly what those conditions are/were, or to what extent the color change occurs is the question.

Either way, grip color is a fascinating topic!

Regards
Russell

Russell, When it came to fashion (and blades) Göring seems to have done whatever he wanted to. From a manufacturing point of view if Göring had wanted a powder blue grip to go with the uniform it would unquestionably have been powder blue. If he wanted the grip to match his boots the same holds true. And he undoubtedly could have had a selection to chose from if he felt so inclined.

I’m not quite sure where Tom Wittmann was going with his statement about the Luftwaffe General’s degen that you cited. But from a manufacturing perspective I think some general observations about color can be made. Some plastic resins are more colorfast than others. And some lend themselves to certain colors while some do not. If we look at just the Dynamit/Nobel company during the Third Reich it made: “Trolit” (cellulose acetate*), “Trolitan” (molded phenol formaldehyde), “Trolon” (cast phenol formaldehyde), and “Troplast” (urea formaldehyde). * (Dynamit/Nobel, a major manufacturer of phenolic resins, actually made the "Trolit" molding powder from resin supplied by I.G. Farbenindustrie.)

All plastic resins have their good and bad points, but colors (and translucence if desired) are an area where the urea’s do well. Molded phenolics do not (especially with light colors) which is why you see so many black and brown pistol grips. The cellulose based grips are reasonably colorfast, but the white ones can yellow very slightly over time with a minor difference between the cellulose nitrate and cellulose acetate formulations (the Germans went to cellulose acetate primarily because it was a lot safer to manufacture).

Cast phenolics were another matter. As I mentioned earlier the U.S. company that originally acquired the rights from Germany to manufacture the cast phenolic resins did some testing to see what would work and what would not. Of the roughly two hundred dyes and pigments tested they had a failure rate of roughly 90%. One of the tests was exposure to a carbon arc light as a way of accelerating exposure to ultraviolet light. Which was known to cause problems with the cast phenolic resins. And also explains the “why” of what you saw with the two 2nd model dagger grips. With cast phenolic resins the reds seem to be the least affected, the whites the most affected, with the rest scatted somewhere in the middle.

Having said all that: If I was forced to make a guess celluloid (a thermoplastic) is a little on the soft side and more easily scratched, so it would not have been a good choice (IMO) for something created specifically for Göring. Which leaves the urea’s and cast phenolics. Either of which could have been colored to suit Göring’s request. Although I’m leaning more to a urea because of all of the compatibility/failure rate issues with the dyed/pigmented cast phenolics. Best Regards, FP

Thanks FP, there is a part in TW's book where he describes the differences between the 1st and the 2nd Luftwaffe Generals degen design - it was this that I was referring to in terms of the grip change configuration "to reflect a solid trolon/celluloid type of yellow color".

With regard to Goering being able to have any grip color he wanted, I totally agree someone would have made it happen!

The period photo in TW's book shows an orange grip, which is one of the questions that I think has been asked in this thread - are there any period photos of colored grips other than white. This is the only one I've seen so far (there must be others). It shows that the technology was available to produce this color at least during the period. I also believe, as you do, that it would have been what Goering wanted, and not the result of a change over time.

On the other hand, I'm also convinced of the argument that some grips, depending on their properties and the conditions they have been exposed to, do change color. I base this on what I have seen on one dealers site as mentioned in my previous post. I found your analysis of DJB's broken luft grip very interesting, and there is a marked change in the color throughout the pieces.

Again, a fascinating subject with many variables to be considered. I appreciate your technical knowledge and your willingness to share it - I've learnt a great deal from this thread!

Regards
Russell

Another interesting quote from Wittmans Luftwaffe book, p132, under a colour picture of the March 1940 edition of Die Klinge, an edged weapons trade magazine, showing a colour drawing of an SMF dagger.

'Is it interesting to note, the grip depicted in the advertisement is white in colour. This writer has never seen an unaltered SMF dagger equipped with a white grip.'

Which suggests that all SMF Luftwaffe grips have changed colour. I presume these are all solid plastic, rather than plastic over plaster.

Frogprince,

I have greatly enjoyed your scientific and scholarly approach toward this interesting topic.

Have you or do you know of anyone that has "recently" sanded or refinished a Third Reich period orange trolon grip down to it's original white color, then observe as the grip changes in color?

First, I would like to thank those who have commented on the more technical aspects of the discussion. While I was reasonably familiar with some aspects, others required me to do a little research. Which was beneficial to me personally because it gave me a much better appreciation of what the original makers must have gone through to create the daggers. Something that I think that we as collectors in this modern age of technology might tend to forget.

I think I still have some pictures of (non-dagger) refinished phenolic resin castings. But unfortunately they are not my property and I can’t post them. What they show is a gradual darkening of the plastic until it approximates the color prior to refinishing. In lieu of that I’m reposting the image that was earlier shared with us that shows the different colors as seen with the broken grip. If you look at where the arrows are now located you can see what looks to me like a darker boundary layer between the inner core and the outside surface. With my understanding of the aging process being that the darker exposed outside surface acted something like a sun block protecting the unexposed interior.

Something additional: 1940 seems to have been a pivotal year for dagger grips. I found a reference where the phenols and ureas were restricted in 1940 for use in military production. No doubt accounting for the increase in the use of the other non-critical materials for late dagger grips. SMF produced a lot of government model issue daggers directly for the Luftwaffe. Which may have aided them in getting around the ban on strategic materials. As a sort of reverse image to Tom Wittmann’s observation that he never an SMF with a white grip: While not as popular in the United States, casein plastic (Galalith) was very widely used in Europe for things like buttons and other assorted sundries. And it was manufactured in a very wide range of colors. I’ve seen a lot of white casein plastic dagger grips. But never an orange or (true) yellow casein plastic grip. Regards to all. FP

This luft dagger is currently in the For Sale section. The owner, Sapient1 has kindly allowed me to post some of the pics here for the purpose of the discussion - thanks Jim.

There is a marked difference in color over this grip, with only small sections which have turned a dark orange. Colors from the pics seem to show pale yellow, through yellow, through to orange, with the lightest color on the reverse.

Regards
Russell

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Regards
Russell

Heres a small interesting photo i bought recently, and its been period colourised. Though this doesn't prove anything interesting to note the dagger has not been coloured orange. Also the seller of this photo, said he also had the dagger for sale. And this turned out to be a very nice orange gripped Eickhorn. Again whether this was the dagger in the photo is anyones guess. But the price was definately amazing...so i had to pass. Had the gold on the pommel to.....

Ruski, that is exactly my observation in my two orange colored 2nd Luft grips. The area where the portepee was, and the reverse are much lighter.

I've been looking through some old books and documentaries hoping to find a colored pic of a dagger in wear with a grip color other than white. I finally found some footage that shows a yellow or orange colored grip on what looks to be an Army dagger. These are stills from a paused image. The subject is Fritz Braun, Eva's father.

Regards
Russell

Close-up.

Regards
Russell

Pommel and crossguard dont look like a regular army, it gives the impression of an imperial navy but resizing does strange things to the pixels and out of place on him .

I did wonder about the dagger type - in some of the pics I lifted from the documentary, the pommel looks to be Army, but the crossguard doesn't. It seems to have that 'square' Navy look to the centre. I think the first pic shows the pommel at it's clearest.

Regards
Russell

Ruski, I do not want to jump into this ongoing discussion about dagger grip colors. But I have been aware of this color film of Eva´s father for a long time and I also have checked it for the grip color. It is without any doubt a totally "normal" army officer´s dagger what you easily can see in the original film sequence. IMO it is a light yellow colored grip as they (imo) were manufactured and delivered during the period.
Regards,

I think this has been posted before, but will post again as its great picture. A colour slide sold on ebay, showing cream coloured lufts.
However note the 'pink' flag in background, which i presume should be bright red...which shows the colours arent too accurate. I still believe these to be cream though.

Hello Gentlemen,

I`ve been following this very interesting thread and thought I`d post a couple of interesting pics, that although, might not proove anything, but will certainly add to this interesting discussion

A couple of months ago, I purchased a YELLOW handled SMF 2nd model luft off GDC. The handle was buggered and had no wire wrap, so I decided to "restore" it with the exact type of grip that I had lying around spare! The problem was, the pommel had been attached cross thread and I was unable to get it off without breaking off the grip, to spray some rust removal spray into the pommel thread! Having said that, the grip was broken in places already! Despite that though, I still crindged while cutting through the center of that grip

Anyway, cutting a long story short, I had left the pieces of that grip in my workshop, lying in several places! This is now going back several months, and this is very relevant to my story here!!!!
When I saw this thread for the first time, I decided to get all the pieces and take pics for this thread, and too my astonishment, this is what I saw
In this pic, you can see a portion of a clear YELLOW "trolon" grip, which is common to all SMF 2nd model lufts!
Bare in mind, this portion and one other were in my workshop drawer, away from light!

In the next pic, you can quite clearly see, that when parting the 2 pieces, (which had been parted at the time when I originally removed the grip from the tang, several months ago), that the center of the two halves, its bright white in colour!

Now for the interesting pics!!!!!!!
Below, you`ll see another 2 halves. The interesting factor about these though, is that, the one half (on the R)was also in my drawer, and the other(on the L), lying face up on the ground exposed to the light, atmosphere, and most proberbly any other fumes of chemicals or other substances in my workshop
Quite clearly one can see that the one half on the Left, is starting to discolour to a yellowish tinge, whereas, the one in the drawer, is still white!!! And all this in only a couple of months!!

So, just an interesting observaion on my behalf.

Cheers,
Dion

I always thought that light (rather then air) was the cause of the change. You might try keeping one chunk in the dark and experiment on the other. You might try throwing it in a tanning bed for an hour for example. If UV is the cause of the change (quite possible) you should call around to see who has a UV cabinet. Any university with a chemisrty departmeny should, as well as any paint manufacturing company. We used to have one at our company but I am afraid we no longer do. You should be able to find someone who would let you drop the grip chunl inthe UV cabinet for free. I think the results could be VERY interesting.
Good luck!
Johnny

Now Dion this is really interesting!
I'm amazed at how fast that is changing color!
Your loss was out gain here thanks sharing.
This thread will go a long way to converting unbelievers!

Great stuff Dion - you'll have to show us some progress reports on the color change!

Regards
Russell

hopefully the results can be incorporated into Craig´s article

Hey Guys,

Yeah, I was amazed by this development myself!
I have already put the one half away in a drawer, and the other exposed to natural light by the window. Lets see how long it takes, if at all, to change?? But i think the results will be what we have now all seen already!

However, in my humble opinion,I tend to agree with Geof Ward, when he says that that the grips came in 2 colours, namely white and yellow.
I say this, because I`m convinced that the yellow ones tended to turn to the orange colour through time and exposure. The reason why I say this, is because I have 2 army daggers, that have grips of light orange on the reverse, and darker orange on the obverse?? Now obviously, i cannot proove that they started out their lives as yellow grips, but the indications are there??

The other reason is, and this has already been mentioned, is that there is hardly any(if at all) photographic evidence of ANY dark coloured grips available on army or luft daggers. All pics I`ve seen, quite clearly show, light coloured grips!
Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter

I`ll keep you guys posted on the progress of my little experiment

Cheers,
Dion

The Catalin Company, a major period American company producing cast phenolic resin products, used an accelerated test for resistance to color changes in cast phenolic resins. Items to be tested were exposed to ultraviolet light from a carbon arc. Of hundreds of a half dozen types of dyes and some inorganic pigments tested there was a failure rate of over 90% - scattered amongst the different types of dyes and color groups. Color changes were not a small problem and were well known to resin manufacturers/users. As for variations in color from grip to grip the relatively small batches of casting resin that were made. And the multiple variations in formulation possible introduce too many variables (IMO) to assume an intentional effort to produce anything other than a white or slightly off white colored grip. FP

O.K.,I had no intention of coming in on this discussion but I must say that VICDIEHL's Period SMF catolog pics of Luft and Heer daggers ARE OBVIOUSLY showing that at the time of sale at least some of these two types came with yellow grips.PERIOD. The comments of scale problems and such are true but all period artist rendered catologs had some scale issues! THIS CATOLOG IS IN COLOR THOUGH!! The others werent! There is NO fading to these images the catalog looks MINT!! Some may have DENIAL issues! The comment on the Luft Portapee being wrong is becouse it was on a 2nd Luft MINIATURE! The ports looked like this on the mini,s! I do agree that these grip materials changed color in MANY cases and to many different extents,but to try to totally shrug off this obviuos proof shown in Vicdiehl's posts is really showing just how stubborn people can get and explane away anything to prove thier point.
I love to hear the debate and think that is a main reason for this forum but that Heer dagger next to the white handled Navy is DARK MAN!!! And it was meant to be that way! I mean if they were trying to "shade" it with some dark hewes why didnt they also do it to the SUPER white Navy right next to it!!?? If they were BOTH WHITE,right?? Kevin.

To add some more info on this topic check out Wittmanns luft book page 209 it shows a period Herder color catalog with a white gripped 2nd model so now we have contradicting period color catalogs that support both theories. You think with all the German vets still alive one of them could remember what color these grips were issued in.

Also taken from a colour plate. I dont ever recall see-ing a blued panel this blue!!.

I am suprised to see this discussion still going on. This blue sword panel is light, but observed in a rare few Imperial navy daggers. Dark Prussian blue is also seen.

The whole grip thing IMHO is just not that complicated to me. During the Kaiser Reich Imperial Navy, Imperial Army Kraftfahr Korps daggers and Imperial Aero corps daggers all had white ivory grips. These white grips set the traditional white standard for the three branches of the armed forces. I believe that the original TR grip producers surely were trying to produce standard white or yellowed (aged ivory) grips but quickly ran into color changes of their grip stock because of chemical action. As frugal sales people they then advertised the colored grips and sold what they had. I posted a color pic of Hitlers 50th parade on one of the grip discussions and there is a officer wearing an orange handled Luft 2 dagger on the left of the review stand. If you have this DVD in color check it out.

Hello Vic. I think you and I know all the period grips were not Ivory in Imperial times, May have been all white though.
Your Buddy Damast

Damast:

You are so very right! In fact there is a 1912 regulation from Carl Eickhorn specifiying white celluloid over wood on naval student daggers and it was on option on Navy officer daggers. Of course for daggers like fireman, etc there were non-white grips. I was thinking about the Navy, Army, and Aero Corps daggers only, as setting a white standard, just an opinion. The German uniform tradition is strong.

Damast, thanks for jogging my memory, always a pleasure.

OK! I think that its time to show the progress of my little "experiment" and I must say, its quite interesting

Since my last thread on this topic, I placed that same piece on a window sill which was exposed to light everyday. The other piece was left in a dark drawer. Bare in mind, that the piece on the left was exposed to not only light, but obviously Oxygen as well. The piece on the right, was only exposed to oxygen.
I started this experiment about 2 months ago!!!

Now look at the difference, when comparing the 2 pieces of grip to my first picture of the color change.

I thought this was quite convincing that "light" and not oxygen, is the reason for the colour change!