UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum grip color

just a short note on the catalog - I was looking at a post on another forum of an early Eickhorn (orange grip) sitting on an Eick catalog - the BW photo made the grip appear white... the poster also posted a grey scale photo of the same photo and the orange grip appeared to be just like the one in the catalog. A bit more fuel on the fire

Gentlemen,
This thing can be hashed and rehashed for years to come. "Vetter" told me about this discussion concerning this when it was ongoing earlier. I am totally 100% convinced that all grips did not start out in life as white. I even contacted Jack Angolia several days ago and he agreed with me as to the range of colors being available from day one. Anyone doubting this can contact me and I will share Jack's email address and they can ask him the same thing and get the same reply. I would include it here but his answer was rather blunt. Grips came in a variety of colors. Even Col. Atwood stated this in his very early book and he had spent long hours with the makers and received his information first hand. Think what you may - I rest my case.
Regards,
Dick Pumphrey

I back up Dicks comment. Yes he is a long time best friend. He is also an early serious collector that turned my strong interest in the hobby to a life long way of life serious collector. Some of the keepers in my collection came from Dick. Doubt of original or not is never present when 100% trust is shared.
Dick forwared the email he received from John Angolia. John and Dick have been long time friends which is evident in the text.
When I read it I thought all collectors should see this.
But being a private email I feel it is not for public viewing without Angolias permission.
Dick and I discussed this on the phone and with Johns permission one of us will post it.

Its Cool.

I have a great deal of respect for Jack Angolia, and he may even be the one who has the original source material that might finally settle the matter one way or the other. Jim Atwood was instrumental in getting the hobby started and is owed a debt of gratitude for doing so. But like many folks, from time to time, he was not infallible. And I think he may have been the one who first used the term �anodized� (presumably when confronted with a scabbard finish that he did not understand). My point here being that to have made such a simple error he must not have spent enough time asking questions of the right people which can happen to anybody.

In Tom Johnson�s 2nd book: �Collecting The Edged Weapons of The Third Reich Vol. II� he had translated an article from �Die Klinge� (June 1936). Which describes what was made in Solingen during that time. When the author gets to the Army Officer�s Dagger he says: �... the beautiful white turned handle with the national insignia on the cross guard�. And from a later period WKC sales catalog when describing the Army Officer�s Dagger it says: �... fittings and scabbard with white plastic grip�. And a (2nd model) Luftwaffe dagger is also stated to have a �... white plastic grip�. I have not seen the original German text of the documentation cited. But am assuming that whoever did the translation gave a reasonably complete and accurate translation of the original material. And the above passages would seem to indicate that the appropriate color for those grips was white.

My purpose is not to be disrespectful or to challenge anyone�s opinions. I stand ready to be corrected. But what I am looking for is some actual period physical evidence. Like period factory sales material listing the different color options. Or a page from an original sales catalog with the same information. Internal factory correspondence about different grips, or a factory parts or repair catalog listing different colored grips as options, whatever is available.

If what Jack shared in his Email is original period documentation regarding different colored grips. Then I sincerely hope that he will see fit to have it shared with those who are participating in this discussion.
Most Respectfully, FP

FP, I always appriciate your writing and your detailed knowledge on the case.
How do you explain the color of those orange colored "glass" like (as stated the material is without any doubt not glass in the common sense but a slightly varying kind of "plastic" material) grips? If they started their life as orange grips why the same should be impossible for other ones?
These certain grips are scarce but not such rare that they can be looked at as an anormaly. I do own three of them and have seen a lot more during the times.

The thing I don't understand about this ongoing debate is why it couldn't be solvedby just asking a survivng German Vet or worker who knew the answer in all the years that have gone by!? JohnJ

Gentlemen,
I have just received permission from Col. Angolia to post his reply here. It is not edited for content but is not meant to offend. I hope that you will understand it is just to help with our question. Thank you.
Regards,
Dick Pumphrey

Good morning Dick,
Don't you just love these self-professed experts?! The "Old Corps" has to put up with the "New Breed" wannabees.

While certainly there was some degree of discoloration on dagger grips, to say that all started out white, and then turned to yellow and then orange is absolutly stupid.

One of the things that I did over the years was to remove the grips for inspection. I have observed grips that were pure orange throughout (from outer to inner core), black (Railway) the same, etc. I could go on. I had period sales catalogues showing the orange grips.

I could find nowhere in the Eickhorn catalogue any reference to grip color, only a distinction between plastic or genuine ivory.

Ivory absolutely does get impacted by oils in hands but not evenly.

Hope this is of some help.
Best regards, Jack

quote:

I had period sales catalogues showing the orange grips.

HAD, being the operative word here. For the sake of us new breed wannabes, how about posting for all to see and put this saga to bed .

Gentlemen,
As a bit of background information Col. Angolia has sold his collection of Third Reich material and now collects U.S. military artifacts. But, I feel sure there are other collectors that still own period dagger publications that could add to this.
Dick Pumphrey

JohnJ, It might already be too late. In correspondence with the late Anthony Carter for his last book �German Sword and Knife Makers Vol. I� he periodically mentioned the problems he was having getting information from different companies. Including those where the family was still involved in the business such as Eickhorn. A true gentleman and a diligent researcher, he kept at it for the second volume of the proposed two volume set until his very untimely demise.

Wotan, Opinion: For all of the Solingen dagger makers together as a group - I believe that there was more than one maker of the phenolic resin grips. And consequently more than one formulation for the resins. Fact: There were multiple makers of the phenolic casting resins during the Third Reich. Fact: There were multiple patents from various individuals/companies once the original Bakelite patents ran out. Fact: It was the interaction of the synthetic coal tar dyes and the phenol formaldehyde resins which was a primary root cause of the problem for the resins turning colors. Some (not necessarily related) phenolic resin formulations were known to start to turn color in hours. Others in weeks or months.

While there could be multiple different formula casting resins. Generally speaking they were clear with a dye added to modify their appearance. If an opaque filler was also added to the grip it would be more opaque. A dye only resin would tend to be more translucent. And if more dye was added to try and moderate the translucence, the potential for a more adverse chemical reaction is increased. Which could also result in more significant color changes and a greater tendency towards brittleness. Regards, FP

I greatly admire Col. Jack Angolia and most sincerely appreciate the work he put into his books. Regarding the comments posted: I don�t dispute what he observed when he disassembled and inspected those daggers that he turned his close attention to. What I don�t know is if he had an occasion to cut into an orange or yellow grip to see what color the interior was away from the surface. I mention this because one of the things that was done on the first go-around for this topic was some experimentation with dagger grips that had been sectioned. With (as I recall) the freshly cut white or cream surfaces gradually turning color to match the rest of the grip�s exterior.

What little original Eickhorn sales material I personally had went to a good friend but was oriented towards swords. Catalog covers depicting only orange dagger grips (no white examples ??) are interesting. But the extract from the WKC catalog was IMHO more to the point as was the article from �Die Klinge�. Hopefully some of the readers of this thread have some period documentation - from any maker - that they can contribute to the topic.

PS: The black grips mentioned were most probably molded phenolic resin which is really an entirely different matter. Best Regards to All. FP

Here is some additional information that I think has a bearing on the topic, that may even answer some issues as regards the physical nature of the grips as we see them now.

The U.S. company that originally acquired the rights from Germany to manufacture the cast phenolic resins did some testing to see what would work and what would not. Of the roughly two hundred dyes and pigments tested they had a failure rate of roughly 90%. The laws of the universe being the same on both sides of the Atlantic - I would imagine that researchers in Germany had comparable problems finding suitable materials to combine with the resins.

Which illustrates how multiple makers, or even a single maker, could have varied the formulation for a casting resin causing a number of grip colorations to be created as time and exposure physically altered them. And because the cast resins were made in relatively small batches, even from the same maker, no two batches are going to be exactly alike which is also going to cause some variations as grips age. In this reposted image provided by Vetter: Of interest I think are the at least four different colorations as seen with the inner core (# 3). The hole for the tang (# 5), an earlier fracture (# 1), and the original outermost part of the grip (# 4).

The image also shows how the plastic suffered multiple fractures (# 1 and # 2) before the last one showing the grip core (# 3). The manufacturing process for the cast phenolic resin is significantly different from molded phenolic resin with water intentionally being incorporated into the casting resin. Which (curiously enough) actually assists in the initial strength of a cast component in somewhat the same manner (but not as effectively) as fillers do for molded parts. The water does stay embedded for a period of time. But eventually, a significant portion finds a way to very slowly migrate out of the finished component into the atmosphere. There are two results: 1) The cast part shrinks. 2) And it becomes even more brittle. Which I think might possibly explain why the grip got broken in the first place. What I�m not sure about is if some of the grips might have been called �glass� grips because of their fragility? FP

This is from Oertzenscher Taschenkalender Fur Die Offiziere Des Heeres 1941. I shows an Army dagger with a yellow handle. Not white, not ivory.

The images are blurry in the book also.

Very interesting!
Thanks Mike for those pics. This is the first period piece of "evidence" in this debate (asside from the daggers themselves) that I have seen. I must admit that I was leaning toward that "they were all made white" side of the argument, but this changes things....

FP- Thanks for all of the valuble input!
Johnny

Period SMF catalog. Yellow grip on both the Luft 2 and the Army dagger on another page. Deutsche klingenmuseum has two copies.

Army grip--same PERIOD catalog.

Trolon refers to a form of Titanium dioxide with a binder material. The WKC catalog that refers to a "weisser Trolongriff" is simply referring to a plaster(trolon) filled grip.

Are all catalogs accurate? Do they show things that do not seem to exist? Is this really evidence? Is it a photo? Or just an artist's "impression"? Is the drawing really accurate or to scale? Or another "impression"? It would seem that the "artist" here had an "impression that the 1st Luft did not have a chain. Hmmm.

Some seem to quote "old references" and older author's here like they are the ultimate answer- They WERE great in their time.( Not Atwood's though-his was published to authenticate his garbage) BUT- Are those other references considered accurate today? OR -Are there a lot of mistakes? I don't know Jack Angolia very well but I have met and talked with him. He insisted that the Sepp Dietrich SS sword was a fake- Could he be wrong about that? How about the grip thing? Could he be wrong AGAIN? JMO. Things to think about. See ya'all at the MAX.

I�m in agreement with Houston that an artist�s impression does not always reflect reality. And the reason could even be something as simple as making an object (in this case grips) stand out from the background (?).

Also titanium oxide is normally used as a white colored pigment for things like paints, but would that matter inside a grip? And to the best of my knowledge "weisser Trolongriff" translates to 'white Trolon grip'. And �Trolon� was a specific cast phenolic resin made by the Alfred Nobel & Co. aka Dynamit AG. And the Trolon brand of 'Gusskunstharz' was an established product from the Dynamit/Nobel factory at Troisdorf in the 1930's. The factory at Troisdorf also made 'Trolitan' a molded phenolic resin, and some other types of plastic. FP

In the end does the debate impact your collecting... or it is just simplly that beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Cheers,

John

John, I think that for some the debate is way beyond the �beauty in the eye of the beholder� stage. When the topic was first presented some applauded the study, and others were less than enthusiastic. And some had very strong feelings against the possibility that the colored grips were the result of some kind of natural aging process.

Thinking about it for a moment. Jon Shallcross�s posting of what is inside that WKC catalog ie: �weisser Trolongriff� is I think fairly solid period evidence of what the company was using to make its grips which was a white plastic. And not just a generic white plastic. It was a 'brand name' from a well established German plastics manufacturer from that era. For other makers only time may tell as additional period information is posted. Regards, FP

Although not perfect, I'm sure German Commanders wanted uniformity within the ranks of each of their branches of service even down to the grip color of their daggers. I'm interested in what was authorized. It would be interesting to know what each service branch uniform regulation states if any, concerning the wear and appearance of daggers and if it states what color grip was authorized for wear. That is if these regulations exists?

Couple more Period pics.

Every bit of period evidence needs to be considered in a scientific study. Suggesting that that a major company had their staff artists color their products to stand out from the paper is not evident in any of the 24 pages of this document. I have absolutely no interest in proving or disproving any theory about grip color. Period artistic examples are very important to study.

more pictures vic

BTW Frog - my post was a bit tounge-N-cheek...

Vic,

I like the idea of taking a scientific approach, and agree with you that all of the evidence should be evaluated. Which includes artist�s drawings of the dress weapons in question. Where I might disagree some is about the artist coloring the grips to make them stand out. When I look at the paper it appears to be not really white, but white with a gray tint. And a noticeably varied selection of colored inks seems to have been used to make the grips stand out from the paper (at least IMO).

Also, looking at the images positioned next to each other (Image 1) . It seems that the artist for some reason wanted to make the pommel of the Naval dagger a lighter gold color than the sword pommel next to it. Whereas the rest appears to be more or less the same. I don�t know why that is and am assuming that it was just �artistic license�(?). Which might also account for a lack of gilt on the Luftwaffe pommel swastika and the disproportionate aspect ratios (blade to hilt) of the swords.

The grip for the Naval dagger in Image 2 appears to have some silver or gray halftones. And the Luftwaffe dagger does not appear to be a pure yellow, but instead seems to be more of an off white, with a hint of yellowish or gold shadings. The same sort of differences as might possibly be expected from a celluloid grip as compared to a cast phenolic resin grip. My point here being that the cast phenolic resins had problems with yellowing unlike the celluloid or the urea formaldehydes which could be easily manufactured �refrigerator white�.

It will be interesting to see if the pattern repeats itself in other catalogs.

PS: Many thanks for those very interesting images, and I also would like to see more of them.

Regards, FP

Image 2.

Fred:

I have always appreciated the depth of your postings. I believe you are a gentleman and a scholar

Vic

Fred:
I went back to the original color slide I shot with Dr. Haedeke back in 1984 to get the best color for you to see of the army grip. Will post more later.
Vic

Can you imagin the German Officer coming home after a couple of yrs. fighting on the front,he has to go to a big party.He go's to the dresser draw and unwraps his dagger which has been stored in a soft cloth to protect it.What color is the "white" grip ? Is it still white as it has not been exposed to the light or has it turned orange ???
BTW the party is on Oct.31 the dagger would fit right in

Vic, I don�t know that I am deserving, but I do appreciate the thought.

For this last image I�m not quite sure what is going on. There are what looks like fairly pronounced gold tones on the grip. But that is the puzzling part. It looks to be the same gold as on the Navy fittings to the right (with some of those fittings also having a slightly "tarnished" appearance using an orange(?). And the Navy grip itself (to me) seems to be more like �mother of pearl� than anything else. More �artistic license�(?). Fred

Ed, Locked away in drawer away from sunlight my guess is that not much would have happened at least as far as a radical color changes in a relatively short time frame. Both the period phenols and the dyes typically were coal tar derivatives. I�m not a chemist, but the cast phenol formaldehydes seem to have some kind of chemical instability and with time the exterior surfaces do degrade with some colors being more visibly affected than others. I think that the age of an item has bearing, and have seen reports regarding other types of objects that were refinished with the old surface layer being removed exposing a fresh surface. And within a year or so most were back to where they were before having the old surface removed. The plus factor in all this is that only the surface seems to be affected, and if left intact will tend to block or at least minimize further changes. Regards to all. FP

1

2

3

Catalogs have their own issues. Look above:

- The navy grip is blue in several.
- The chrome bayo is blue
- The Navy crossguard proporttions are not right
- The luft knot is nothing like the original
- The shape of the grips is not true
- The top swaz on that 2nd Luft is not realistic and the lower one has no guilding


My only point is that advertising is to make the product look good and the renderings are not always 100% real. This was more so many years ago.

Dave

Dave makes some really excellent observations. I had (temporarily) forgotten that these were not �spec� sheets, but sales tools. And like so many other forms of advertising are not always faithful reproductions.

I also see Vic�s point. That with especially the image of the two Luftwaffe daggers together that the grip of the second model, as the artist created it, does have a yellowish or golden cast to a significant portion of the grip. However, to add to Dave�s list: In the same image the leather grip of the first model dagger is essentially black with some blue highlights. And the presumably natural aluminum finish has a strong blue/black tint, which is exactly the same as that on the steel Luftwaffe sword blade.

Hopefully some other members have some images from period catalogs that they would like to share to see if there are any differences in the way that they were colored.

And to Vic: Thanks Again for the images!! It�s always a pleasure to see period information as it was seen through the eyes of prospective purchasers of that era. Best Regards, FP

Collectors, while we are looking at this old SMF catalog here is a 1200 DPI scan of the product line sticker from the back cover for your file. The second catalog did not have one in place so this may very well be the only one in existance.

Scissors / Bayonet / Razors / Pen-knifes but what is the other thing?.
Just curious .

Another type of Razor....

I'm assuming you're thinking about the one with the three holes in it ??? Yes? Razorblade.


Ulf.