UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons HJ Edged Weapons Forum Supposed Marine HJ

Hello friends,
A holland dealer is offering to me this HJ. As I can�t locate any info that confirm if these were real or not I�d like hear your opinion. Thanks!!!!

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Before this certain dealer is offering you another knife with pink HJ diamond for the gay section of the HJ -PLEASE- run away from this dealer.
Regards,

I think (please correct me if I'm wrong), that they used the blue color instead of red for the Estonian volunteers in general.Do not count on my opininion until is confirmed by someone more experienced.

quote:

Originally posted by wotan:
Before this certain dealer is offering you another knife with pink HJ diamond for the gay section of the HJ -PLEASE- run away from this dealer.
Regards,

I thought pink was for Motor-HJ.

Oh yes, there were some very rare colors for these knives.

Red was standard HJ
Green was for the Irish HJ
Blue Democrats
Pink was for girls.

The knife seems fine.
The diamond is not.
Scabbard is not clearly pictured.
There exist some blue original diamond though... all blue, (not blue and white like this one)

Best greetings,

Herman

Eric, then must I suppose than all white diamond was for KKK??
Thanks to all for the help with this knife.
An uncommon piece that doesn�t appears in my books ever is suspicious.

Thanks again even for the good humour sense

Hi Guys!
In the old days many people referred to these as HJ Marine Knives. This is not true as I will have a true HJ presentation marine knife in my book?
These blue diamonds are for a foreign service and they are fine. I would be happy to buy it as long as the diamond is inserted in the proper fashion. Seriously, if you do not buy it let me know. I have a couple hundred HJs so if you want one or would like to trade let me know.
Best Wishes,
Bob

These little "skittles" HJ diamonds have been discussed at length elsewhere. No HJ regs or period photos have ever been produced to my knowledge with anything other than the standard red, white & black diamond, either as a pin or knife insert.

Dig it out and I bet you'll find "Otto Hoffmann" on the back - a completely non-existent maker. The fake pins come in every colour of the rainbow - pink, yellow, green, black and infamous "marine" blue.

The only known genuine foreign HJ pin in another colour is the Hungarian Youth, which was a green and white diamond, but had a round swastika.

The legend of the blue "Marine HJ" insert has been around for some time, but is not borne out in the period literature - unless someone here can produce it.

Thanks to all for the replys.

Stephen, I�m still in doubt with you for your help with the Eberstein�s GPB. This time, in case of doubt with a suspicious knife, I�ll pass on it.

Bob, I�ll mail the seller to contact you if you�re interested or I can send you his mail. Just let me know what you prefer and I�ll do.

Best to all
Raul

It's been a while since I've looked at "all the colors of the rainbow" HJ knives. I've long ago lost the information in one computer crash or another. But there was a collector whose personal mission it was to document the fakes out there - to keep others from spending their money on junk.

My own recollection is that as "Gold Party Pin Guy" stated: "No HJ regs or period photos have ever been produced to my knowledge with anything other than the standard red, white & black diamond, either as a pin or knife insert."

Which still holds true as far as I know.

FP

These blue and white and other non standard colored inserts and pins are FAKE. They NEVER were seen in the old days. They first appeared about 15 years ago.

GPPGuy, frogprince and Houston, thank you very much for your clear statements. This is exactly what I wanted to express in my first post her. I deeply wonder (but respect; no offence here)how even long time members could resist this founded knowledge mentioned already for several times in the forum.
Regards,

Hi Houston!
I would love to get your input on these, Joe P and Kim Alstott have seen these in the old days. Did you notice these at a particular period in time popping up? Have any of the ones you have seen been attached in the proper way?
Thanks for your help!
Bob

All period HJ knife inserts have the long thin prongs IMO--not the thicker hat pin types. Looking at the backs of these should result in a clear conclusion--if not the rehilting should tell the tale. When I speak of the old days I'm not talking 20 years-I'm talking 40-50 years

Hello Bob,

The fact that you believe this diamond to be period makes me worry about your upcomming HJ book... Can you tell us what you are writing there about these diamonds?

Best greetings,

Herman

orster recently cleared out their storeroomsof 22 tons of original parts.We are fortunate to offer the Hitlers Youth series of knives assembled using Holler ,Alcoso ,Klaas,Krebs and Bocker (sic)parts"
All knives were �60 and on offer were a 33 pattern HJ with motto and trademark on blade,Hitler Navy Youth with motto and trade mark on blade and blue navy diamond in grip and a Hitler Student knife with motto and trademark on blade and large swaz diamond in grip
Nice story but suspect untrue and knives infact repro why would there be lots of mottoed blades lying in store surely they would have been used up in the period

Hi guys last post should have read quoting from a Worldwide Arms catalog from 1998
"Unique find!!Two Solingen factories of Eickhorn and Horster etc etc

I'm with Houston on this one. Seen HUNDREDS directly from veteran's hands and NEVER one of the different colored diamonds.
Also, NEVER any at shows until the late 1970s early 1980s, when you would see all the nice NSFK, Frauenschaft and other neat enamel pieces for the first time too.
It just doesn't make any sense in my opinion.
Ron Weinand

M7/75 is Boker so probably one of the Worldwide Arms repros

Gents, have any of you seen these blue colored diamonds with the correct pins for mounting in a knife?

Regards
Russell

Russell,

I can't say that I have, but it would not be a big deal to swap out a diamond. And I don't honestly think that it would make a difference (for me at least) given the experience of those who have been in this area much longer than I have.

It�s really unfortunate that the images I had of all the different colored diamonds got lost in a hard drive crash and I don�t remember the kinds of pins that were used. That said, it does not take any more manufacturing effort to make the correct style pins versus the ones most commonly seen.

That the other types are more common (IMO) is simply due to the fact that they are easier to install - also lending themselves also to the �DJ� types of fakes. And in the beginning, there may have been more of the unattached original red narrow prong types in circulation.

Regards, FP

Hi Guys!
I don�t like controversial areas so I am going to stay away from these, it is always better to stick with �rock solid� pieces?!
Thanks!
Bob
PS- Herman I sent you a PM long ago, drop me an email when you get a chance. [email protected]

These certainly exist in fact Tom Wittmann had an original some time back, from memory it sold for around $1900.00. Also the blue in Wittmann's knife diamond was more muted and certainly not bright like the one in this thread. I wish I still had the pic.
Personally I don't like this knife and IMO Bob you are doing the correct thing by staying away.

Ron hit the nail "..it just doesn�t make any sense..."
Red and white in combination with the swaz� were "the colors of the Reich" not comparable with socalled "weapon�s colors" (for different branches). What would you think of a Reichskriegs-flag colored blue instead of the red fields.... yes, these are exactly my thoughts on blue colored Hj diamonds. Whoever have/had one and have/had sold one.
If you collect german items you have to think (and understand) german (not meant in any political way!).
Regards,

Gents, what are your thoughts on the green and white diamond with round swastika, and the all blue diamond mentioned by Stephen and Herman respectively? Have either of these been confirmed with any period documentation? Can anyone show pics of these? Interesting thread evolving here.

Fred, thanks for your reply.

AJ, very interesting info as well. There was an Alcoso HJ shown on the forum a little while ago - perhaps it was another one of these that you mention, but it had a 'normal' diamond.

HAL9000, can you find out from the dealer whether the diamond is fixed tight, or has some movement?

Regards
Russell

All of the odd colored HJ Diamonds appeared at the same time the Foreign HJ Distinguished Service Award reproductions appeared in the 1970s. You can remember these: the different color green, red and brown backgrounds to this very rare badge. Marked Aurich and on an official sample card which, at the time, was questioned as being from a source in England and no such examples ever existed during the Third Reich. Every now and then you see one of these by themselves and are claimed to be a rare variation.
I have found two of these badges out of veteran's hands and both were the brown color and unmarked, not from Aurich. The pin base plate shows some differences when compared to the Aurich marked repros.
This was about the same time the different HJ membership badges in different colors came to the shows. I also feel these were produced in England at the same time as the Foreign HJ Badges appeared and from the same source.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

Thanks for the info Ron - do the coloured diamonds that appeared around that time also include the green and white with round swastika, and the all blue version?

Regards
Russell

Ruski,
First thing I do when he show me the knife was test the movement in the pin. It seems fixed without any kind of movement, different as the others HJ "normal" knifes I own.

Again, thanks to all for the opinions and for what I�m learning. It�s curious the evoultion of the thread.

I wish Russ Neighbour would join this discussion.
I ones asked his opinion about a full blue diamond, he told me it was fine.
He also said that he owned a knife with a diamond like this one and that he had in his possession an original period picture of the owner wearing the knife with full blue diamond. Unfortunately I have never seen any photo's of the knife nor of the picture.

Will look up my picture of the full blue diamond I had showed to Russ some years ago.

Best greetings,

Herman

This piece was listed on a well known dealer's site some time ago for $1995, just showing for reference. The emblem is blue & gold, I have no idea whether they're legit or not although I will say the rivets on this one look unusual.

RZM maker mark.

Billy, do you recall what organisation this was attributed to in the description?

Regards
Russell

Russell,

I don't remember specifically but I did have another blue/gold one that was supposedly attributed to a "Luxemburg Youth Movement". Who knows for sure?

While I find the idea that there would be different colored enamel HJs for different organizations intriguing, I have to be swayed by the opinions of Ron & Houston that never saw these things until relatively recently. I like to never say never but one can make a hell of an argument by saying they were never seen in the '50s & '60s when there were collectors of 3R items.

Along with some other supposedly HJ related knives, sometimes forgotten I think in all this discussion is the RZM.

HJ knives were NSDAP party symbols and a series of laws were passed regarding them specifically mentioning hats, armbands, and more specifically: �f�r die Hitler-Jugend mit dem Deutschen Jungvolk ....... Fahrtenmesser f�r die Hitler-Jugend und das Deutsche Jungvolk�.

Ron related to us the following information: �All of the odd colored HJ Diamonds ........ reproductions appeared in the 1970s. ........ was questioned as being from a source in England and no such examples ever existed during the Third Reich.� ....... This was about the same time the different HJ membership badges in different colors came to the shows ........ at (about) the same time as the Foreign HJ Badges appeared and from the same source.�

So where are all the �blue�, �pink�, �purple�, �green�, �brown�, (whatever) armbands, hat pins etc. that would have accompanied these knives as a part of the uniform?? The other uniform accessories were mandatory. The HJ knives were not - and should be outnumbered by the other items by a ratio of what?: 2:1, 5:1, 10:1, more?

Mistakes/errors in judgement come in all sizes. I�ve sometimes made mistakes in my collecting, big time dealers have made mistakes - so I don�t think that anyone is necessarily immune. My point being that the mere existence of some items is NOT proof that they are period. And you have to look beyond that to period evidence and the experience of those who first saw some of these items appear in the marketplace specifically �targeting� collectors and the occasional unscrupulous dealer(s) who were not as well educated at the time. FP