UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Medals & Badges of the Third Reich Forum Fake Ostvolkers?

I just got these two medals (Ostvoler 2nd class w/t swords in Gold and Silver)from a dealer. They looked fine on the photos, however closer examination revealed number of problems. Here is the list of specific things that bother me:

1. Both medals have identical nicks on them (can this come from a damaged press?)

2. The rays are not symmetrical, the one on the right is higher than the one on the left (both medals have this)

3. Both medals seem to be coated with some brown varnish as to give them aged look (both on back and the front)

4. The rings on both medals have gaps in them (all the other medals that I've seen don't have such gap - this might indicate that these were opend and attached to the medals? )Also the rings are stamped (45) - as far as I know, the only stamping you get on Ostvolkers is (100).

5. You can see someone smearing the varnish around the rays of the medal as well

6. Trances of this brown varnish (or could this be patina???) on the clip

7. Traces of the varnish on the neck.

8. Is that a molding line? Would this indicate that the medals were molded? This line goes all around the medal.

I am not a specialist in medals, perhaps someone can help me out with this? I have 7 day's retun on them.

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one more clearer shot

The Ostvolk series of awards was produced post war. No swastika, no problem producing the medal for vets. I have forgotten what the give away is. Something to do with the dished out reverse. Will have to do some checking.

--dj--Joe

The give away for 1956 awards is the that the ring is attached straight to the medal (there is no prolonged extention on the top). What bugs me about my medals that it appears that someone tried to age them on purpose

quote:

Originally posted by derjager:
The Ostvolk series of awards was produced post war. No swastika, no problem producing the medal for vets.

--dj--Joe

The "Ostvolk" series was not a post war fabrication ..the awards were established (by Adolf) on July 14th 1942 .
The complete series is explained and each example illustrated starting on page 84 of --
" Medals & Decorations of the Third Reich "
by Dr. Doehle ..Printed in 1943.
These Awards were ignored for years , nobody wanted them because we (as collectors) knew very little about them ...so , they were always cheap. And besides , you know how some Collectors think ..."where's the Swastka?" so , why buy it ? It was never a high profile Award. I remember buying an OV 1st Cl Silver w/Swords for $5 back in 1968..Black Wound Badges were $2-$5.00 back then.
Since they were not a standard German Award (awarded by Germany to German Soldiers) I don't even know if the 1957 re strikes included this series but even if they were produced , I can't believe the production run would be that high .No factory would invest money to produce an item that would not be a fast or guaranteed seller ..and if there were not that many Vets who were awarded it and , there was no real "Collectors Market" for it (as opposed to the market for a 1957 EK for example)I don't believe they'd tool up for producing thousands of them. Picture how many TR-era ribbon bars we've seen around with that green ribbon ...
As far as the quality ...they've always been horrible. The open ribbon ring doesn't bother me because I've seen those around for years but....the finish never held up, and some do look like they've been spray painted (which makes it worse) Remember , years ago the trend was to spray your medals with a polyurethane sealer to stop the finish from flaking off ...Over the years I'm sure many of these had that "treatment" .
As far as the Repros ..since they make repro Black Wound Badges and even Tinnies today , they're probably making these now as well. The only way we'll be able to ID them would be for us to start comparing the examples we have and looking at die flaws/details/ribbons etc

The Rudolf Souval firm of Vienna used to make some decent copies of all the Ostvolk medals/badges, as evidenced in their old 1975 catalog, items 12/18 thru 12/21 being the 1stClass, & items 12/22 thru & including 12/26 being the 2dClass. But they were extra-heavy, with flat-backs (instead of having the dished-out backsides). Their 2dClass versions had original ribbons, with L/58 marked rings (easy to replace by anyone), & the 1stClasses were usually stamped with the L/58 mark, sometimes crookedly & not centered.

Mike, thank you for the interesting story on the Ostvolks, your comments are also very helpful. 5 bucks for 1st class - what a deal

I don't even know if the 1957 re strikes included this series but even if they were produced

- They did, I have a pic of the 1957 medal somewhere, let me post it.

Remember , years ago the trend was to spray your medals with a polyurethane sealer to stop the finish from flaking off ...Over the years I'm sure many of these had that "treatment" .

- That would definately explain the varnish! If anybody else can check their medals if they have the same traits (my questions nr. 1, 2 and 8) that would help me a lot.

I should have written "also produced post war". Of my two silver grades one is unmarked, one is marked 100 on the ring. Both are zinc base and bubbling! One has a corresponding nick!
Will attempt to post a couple of images later today.

--dj--Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Schloss 1:
The Rudolf Souval firm of Vienna used to make some decent copies of all the Ostvolk medals/badges, as evidenced in their old 1975 catalog .

Hi ya Schloss ..I also use to deal with Mr Lane (RS L/58's)back in 1973 while I was in High School ..Now , you gotta remember I was 15 to 16 when I was doing this and wouldn't do it today. I'd buy the fake L/58's from Ken Lane and sell them to the Antique Dealers in my area to raise money so I could buy the real stuff !
Most Antique dealers in my area were like Used Car Salesmen and never had a problem ripping off or over-charging young collectors ..guess it was my way of giving something back to them also , since that was pre internet ..most of the local collectors knew each other so , I gave everyone a heads up and it turned into an ongoing joke (until a few others started doing it and flooded the local market)
I remember his medals being cheap except for stuff like a DKiG (not sure but,I think that was $20 ? which was a lot to a kid)
Do me a favor , look up his prices for the OV medals, I'd like to know what they sold for back then.
Since he has them in the Catalog , I wonder if he located or had a set of the orig Dies to produce them ..that's the only way I can see it being worth it for him (RS)to re strike them because making a new set of Dies even back then probably cost thousands , unless they were cast (that could explain the flat backs you mentioned )

Hi Joe , Askold... I'll dig out the ones I have and if we all post , we can start an "OstVolk Medal Fest" ...It will be interesting to compare them

Hi Mike,
In my olde Souval catalog, the 2d Class ran $4 to $5, with the 1st Class @ $7. The Deutsches Kreuz was $27; that was for their offering without rivets. They also had a "genietet" (riveted) version for $35.

I should have mentioned that my Souval catalog is from 1975,- & that back in 1968, their prices were somewhat lower.

Thanks for looking that up ..What a relief ...that means even though I'm getting older , my memory is not that far gone !
Look at that , $7 for a 1st Cl and bet bet they had a hard time selling them back then ...since there's no Swas , to sell it you'd have to convince someone it was really a Nazi item and not just a chunk of costume Jewelry.

I have found many of these, unissued, directly from WWII veterans. All are not the best in the world, many with poor finishes and almost all of the pin back models are numbered 100. IMO the ones pictured here are originals.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Thank you Ronald, is it possible to comment on the fact that the rings are stamped (45) and both medals have the same nicks on them? I have till Thursday to return them.

As promised.
--dj--Joe
With swords, Obverse.

With swords, reverse.

With out swords, obverse.

Without swords, reverse.

Askold, can you get a close up of an area on either award? I am wondering if they may have been cleaned? (The bubbling/corrosion removed).
--dj--Joe

well yeah, they been reproducing these for a long time. A few things I liked to follow when I collected these,,zinc only,no flat backs,no smooth backs, only unmarked or 100 marked, excellent obverse detail....
Only have a couple now that I've picked up directly from the original recipients....Heres one,,,

reverse,,100 marked ring

As to the same marks, I believe that only one die was produced by each company, the finishes were different.
Next, as to the 45, I would have to check a listing of LDO numbers that is probably available on WehrmachtAwards.com. I frequently check this sight for markings, fakes and other information.
I have just given you my experience with veteran acquired material that I have found. This does not mean that repros may not exist, but to my gut feeling, these appear to be original to me based on what I have seen. I would have to check further about the markings.
Ron

Prasidialkanzlei and LDO numbers list, link.
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/800097573/m/7760012084

Askold, you'll find these around with a little hunting. If the medal itself makes you uncomfortable leave them be and wait for better examples that would leave no doubts for you...

Have these awards been noted to have been reproduced using the 100 mark?

--dj--Joe

Thank you Joe, Gaspare, Ron, Mike and everyone else, you really helped me out! Comparing the photos with the examples posted by Joe I found that my medals are very siilar to his. They both have notches and one of the rays on the right is slightly longer. This makes me feel that I have originals.

Also under closer examination I found that the ring number is actually (15), which is:

15 Friedrich Orth - Wien How can I check if they made those?

Askold, can you get a close up of an area on either award? I am wondering if they may have been cleaned? (The bubbling/corrosion removed).

- I'll poste beter pics in the morning. I think different makers meant that the medals came out differently. I noticed that not all Ostvolkers are bubbly, while some have a lot of them.

P.S. Am almost confident that I have originals, just one more question - were all medals struck or were some casted too? It seems to me that my medals have a mold line running trouh them - is this OK to have? (or perhaps its not a molding line, but form the struck press. I'll try to get a close up pic and post tommorow morning).

Here's more close ups. Joe, does your medal has a ridge in the side like mine? (orange arrows). Its seems to run all around, but in the bigger edges its uneven.

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Close up of the areas you wanted to compare

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Askold, I compared the edges of mine and they show what your arrows point to also. I am not sure it qualifies as a mold line so much as notches and irregularities.
They also show up on my 1st. class award.

Nice close ups. I'll have to look around at other examples.

--dj--Joe

It would be great to see other examples posted.
Images of the 57 issue also.

--dj--Joe

Let the Ostvolker fest continue! Here are some fake Ostvolkers to watch out for. Note the sword guards are not as clear as on originals:

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