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#186073 02/26/2008 09:11 PM
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Here are my luftschutz birds I picked up.

scan0005.jpg (64.22 KB, 376 downloads)
#186074 02/26/2008 10:14 PM
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Very interesting. Two three feather and a five feather. Were these all from the same source? All three "non-typical", what are the odds of that! They also look mint.

Regards,
Bill Unland

#186075 02/26/2008 10:25 PM
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No all different sources.... The top bird was glue in a album some point. The bottom green bird has alot of mothing to the bird gray wool backing and appears to been sewn on at some point. The red is nice and minty. The detail looks a little flat because I am experimenting with my flat bed scanner instead photos. I bought other birds but I firgue I throw this out first..... Not much in the way of police at the SOS........

#186076 02/26/2008 10:36 PM
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Hey whats so " non typical " about them ????????

#186077 02/26/2008 11:57 PM
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Dear Hanswurst,

No slight intended. By non-typical I mean different from the standard 6 feathered type. Rarer variations...harder to find. Those 3 feathered birds are a tough one, and you have two!

Regards,
Bill U

#186078 02/27/2008 04:32 AM
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Sorry Bill ,
No slight intended, I thought you saw something I might have miss.....I have a few others to post over the next few days.... I hope to bring more life back to this forum!!!!!!!!

#186079 02/27/2008 03:08 PM
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OK, I can play. I picked up this WSP eagle at SOS. One of the few police related things I bought.

Did anybody else see the large number of fake high end police uniforms at SOS? I saw two fake black Pol Panzer jackets, two fake green Pol Assault gunner jackets, and one fake WSP uniform. There were several nice common police uniforms but too expensive for my taste.

WSP_eagle.JPG (98.37 KB, 314 downloads)

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
#186080 02/27/2008 04:32 PM
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Thats a nice Bevo eagle, George. Did you see the Autobahn Police em visor, also on the same wall with the fake police panzer jacket.. Over all there was a lot of fakes at the SOS.

#186081 02/27/2008 05:04 PM
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Yes, I saw that fake cap and handled it just to get a feel for the latest and greatest fakes. I did not have to finger the Panzerjacke as it stood out as bad from six feet away... thankfully. I agree with you that there were more fake police stuff this year than in years past. It seems we are on the faker's radar. It seems to me they are trying to copy pictures of stuff without really having an original example to work with in many cases. They do seem to be working from originals in the case of sleeve eagles as these just keep getting better and better.

I thought the real stuff was generally overpriced and I frankly did not see much of this high priced police stuff moving. I wound up with some nice edged weapons but almost no cloth.


"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
#186082 02/28/2008 12:09 PM
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The bad thing is that cap was sold to somebody.

#186083 02/28/2008 07:13 PM
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Not keen on the 5 feathered eagle, could this one be another one of those new fakes?? something seems to be missing with this one, just my opinion I will have to take a closer look at that one.

#186084 02/28/2008 07:49 PM
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After careful study and evaluation I do believe that the crimson luftschutz eagle that Hanswurst shows is one of the new generatin of reproduction eagles that are currently flooding the market, this one is a very good example of an original but again just has not got it, very very close and getting better, so look out all you collectors. You also have to remember that this type of eagle has no variations, one eagle is exactly like the next, weather is is the 5, 6 or 3 wing type all are exactly the same in body, head and oakleave construction. Here is a comparison of a real eagle and Hanswurst

Fake.JPG (73.21 KB, 253 downloads)
#186085 02/28/2008 07:52 PM
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Six wing, Please take note all features are exactly the same as the 5 wing

6.JPG (30.41 KB, 252 downloads)
#186086 02/28/2008 07:55 PM
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3 wing. All features are exactly the same except the end of the wings. I hope this will help everyone in the future

3.JPG (73.12 KB, 249 downloads)
#186087 02/28/2008 09:18 PM
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So Gary let me get this straight, out of the some 35 companys producing Eagles for the 3rd Riech ever eagles is going to be the same? This is ocourse not including the "mom and pop" insigna makers. This is IMPOSSIBLE,mordern machinery can't get my Departments patchs the same ever run, but 100 year old German machines can. I have seen you post eagles that don't fit the norm but because they belong to you they are fine. They also are not same ever time, but now you say they have to be the same. So Gary which is it?? Yours don't have to be the same ever time but the rest of the world has to be. Gary I hate say but you are getting a little to full of yourself at this point.

#186088 02/28/2008 09:28 PM
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I futher like to point out Gary for your logic to work maybe the 3 birds you post could be all the same bird 1 has a thick body and a pug beak, and thick wreath and bird 2 has a long body short beak and thinner wreath, bird 3 has a thick body curved beak and head tilts to the left. last but least all the swatikas are different on the birds you posted. So following your logic all 3 of yours are repo as well. Remember you logic implied here.

#186089 02/28/2008 10:19 PM
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Dear Hanswurst,

Actually, I believe that the eagles Gary has posted are mine not his, but I could be mistaken. Those are photos I have posted on this and other forums in the past.

I would point out that judging the authenticity of cloth artifacts is totally subjective. It is an opinion and nothing more, and is difficult if not impossible to "prove" one way or the other.

My own practice is to identify an eagle as a reproduction ONLY if I find it for sale AS a reproduction somewhere, or if it is a totally bizarre color or form never used during the period.

Of course embroidery will vary from example to example. There are many variables that will affect the appearance of a cloth insignia such as thread used, thickness of the background cloth,even the humidity at time of production, so YES eagles will rarely be exact matches of each other. That said certain patterns, which are assumed to be made by one manufacturer, will indeed all tend to be very similar in appearance. Similar but rarely "exact".

I cannot get into the middle of this disagreement as I have not examined your eagle under the same lighting and conditions as the others. Consequently I can see the differences that Gary has identified, but I must withold my opinion as to whether they are significant or irrelevant.

Please take the information presented for what it's worth; an exercise in learning NOT an ex cathedra statement of fact.

Regards,
Bill Unland

#186090 02/28/2008 11:11 PM
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Dear Bill ,

I have a problem when someone tells me that all eagles should be the same and then use 3 birds which are not the same as the examples. The statement made can only be interpret as 1 company made all the eagles and they are all the same. As quoted : "You also have to remember that this type of eagle has no variations, one eagle is exactly like the next, weather is is the 5, 6 or 3 wing type all are exactly the same in body, head and oakleave construction. Here is a comparison of a real eagle and Hanswurst"

I am tired of absolutism about police eagles, because they don't match one of his so they are all bad. That is just poor insight. That said I remember that 3 feather eagles were all discounted as fakes. That they never existed and so forth. We now know that to be false.

I also make decision on fakes I have seen on the market , fakes posted here and one I handle at shows. I believe I have a fairly good working knowledge of these birds. I do not consider myself and expert . As I also believe there are no experts in this field.

#186091 02/28/2008 11:40 PM
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Dear Hanswurst,

I understand your position and I agree that there are no 'experts" in authenticating cloth. That said, some put more time into studying than others and the weight one puts to an opinion must be based on YOUR OWN trust in the "experience" of the opinion giver.

I will not post on some forums because totally unknown people will simply post "It's a fake" or "No good" and then disappear into the night. I get angry sometimes, but that is a waste of time. Obviously their opinion is worthless.

I think we need to take a deep breath here and try to do a little detective work. I have a pretty large data base on these. If you e-mail me a good scan of the front and back of the eagle I will compare it directly and send YOU that comparison. You can make your own evaluation.

I don't think Gary is trying to insult your expertise. I for one certainly acknowledge that you have an impressive collection and a comprehensive selection of sleeve eagles.

There is one particular faker who is extremely competent, and seems to be able to turn out new product very quickly. He sems to be using optical scanning and a digital embroidery machine. He is possibly using photos posted on the forums to make his fakes. He also seems to be a member of the forums as he switches patterns as quickly as one of his "works" is revealed as a fake here or on the WAF forum. One such new fake was exposed but a few weeks ago. I think Gary is merely alerting us to the possibility that he may have jumped patterns again based on some differences between your eagle and the others of this pattern so far cataelogued.

I have about half a dozen eagles in my colection which I have serious doubts about because of small but significant differences in construction. Maybe nothing, but enough to warrant further research.

It is your eagle. No one can tell you to be happy or not with it. Gary and I have had numerous fights about eagles, and tempers have flared on more than one occasion. The results, however; have generally resulted in good information being disseminated to all in the end.

Best regards,
Bill Unland

#186092 02/29/2008 12:30 AM
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Bill thanks for the offer.... but this will make my 106th bird in my collection. I have no concerns with this bird at this time. If I find it in a repo site or catalog then I will revise my decision.

#186093 02/29/2008 01:03 AM
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Dear Joe,

That is the course I would take. Once again, unless I see an eagle for sale AS a repro I consider them to be otherwise unless clearly of laughable design or execution.

Regards,
Bill Unland

#186094 02/29/2008 01:11 AM
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Here is an example of why one must take caution when declaring an eagle a "fake" because of one difference in execution.

These two eagles bodies, as well as the script names are IDENTICAL. They are clearly from the same manufacturer but look at the wreaths. Totally DIFFERENT. Does that mean one is a fake. NO, both are from the same vet and were obtained from the same source. Both are used originals.

I offer this example to show why careful analysis is important and looking at one photo is rarely enough to decide if an eagle is good or bad.

Hope this clarifies my position on Joe's eagle.

Regards,
Bill Unland

Koln.jpg (35.02 KB, 177 downloads)
#186095 02/29/2008 01:37 AM
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Two VERY nice birds Bill. I wouldn't mind making them 107 and 108.....

Thanks Bill and all the best.....
Joe

#186096 02/29/2008 04:47 PM
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Hanswurst, everyone is entitled to an opinion and my opinion stays, after all it is MY opinion, and I will be putting this one in the repro gallery in the book. I did not say that all eagles have to be the same READ WHAT I SAID CAREFULLY??? I said THIS TYPE of eagle has to be the same, the differences you mention in these eagles is due to resizing by me. Bill is correct these are not my eagles. Bill do you have a picture of the Koln fake eagle? my picture is a little washed out

#186097 02/29/2008 08:52 PM
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Let's not go there. Use e-mail if you must for personal communications of this sort.

Edited by moderator.

#186098 02/29/2008 10:07 PM
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Let's not go there. Use e-mail if you must for personal communications of this sort.

Edited by moderator.

#186099 02/29/2008 10:28 PM
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Okay Bill.

Gary you do not have permission to use any of my photos at all so please don't.
Thank you
Joe

#186100 02/29/2008 10:29 PM
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What I dont understand is why you cannot accept that many people have many opinions on insignia, I have mine, and of cause you have yours, if you are happy with your bird that is all that counts, other people have there own opinions, is it not education that helps everyone to learn, I believe the bird to be a new repro, so I voiced my opinion to this fact, in the hope that it will expressly help those in the future to avoid such a costly mistake. If this is wrong I am sure the collecting community will voice there opinion on the bird in question, but unfortunately because of your unwillingness to discuss your aquasition and to have all discussion of the insignia removed from this forum and the collecting community many more people will be prone to purchasing a possible reproduction. I am not trying to be malicious in any way, just trying to educate and learn. It seem that you have some sort of vendeta on anyone that voices an opinion on ANY of your wares

#186101 02/29/2008 10:52 PM
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Maybe you should look at what forum you are posting on before doing so , nothing is missing here. This is were I , the owner of the eagle in question posted it and it is the only place I wish to do so. I is obvious by you post you do not know what forum you are on so how can you comment on anything else.

For all the folks left out of his cryptic post, he is refering to me asking a moderator (on another site all together )to remove my photograph that he used without getting my permission to use on that site.


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