UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum How Many Chained SA High Leaders?

Does anyone know how many SA Chained High Leaders Daggers exist?

Great question. I would guess less than 100 produced. How many survived?

My understanding is 50.

Zorro,

Can you tell us your source ?

Dave

Lets see here:
If memory serves me correctly there were 5 High leaders daggers for sale at the SOS earlier this year. Based upon the number above this would constitute 10% of the total number ever made! Would any one care to take a stab at the survival rate to make this plausible?
I too would be interested in hearing where the original number of 50 came from.

Jim ,You are right 5 is 10% of 50 and if there were only 5 left in the world that would be 10% of the original 50 and if there was 50 left that would be 100% of them left.Now if there were 25 left then that would be 50%.Now it gets more complex when you factor in the fact that chained high leader daggers were made from honor daggers.Now if you have ten honor daggers and lets say five of them were made into high leader daggers,then 50% of the honor daggers were made into chained high leader daggers.Now are they now considered honor daggers or are they chained high leader daggers.Lets just consider the chained high leader dagger and not the converted honor daggers and I am sure you will agree with my original number of 50.What was your question?My source? Paul from lakeside trader who said less than 100 and fifty is less than 100 or 50% of 100. Right Jim ? You know guys when I say something you do not have to take it as gospel or written in stone,unrefuteable just weigh and consider it and let it go.(:}X

Rather than discuss a number which we likely will never come to agreement on, lets ask a couple questions that may help us come to an approximation. I believe this dagger was a presentation piece. Does any one know the necessary rank required to wear one? Were they awarded only for rank or for certain services or deeds also?
Really an amazing piece of work and in my mind the epitome of 3rd Reich workmanship. Amazing to consider there are variations even within the very few daggers produced.

Here's my answer: Fewer than the amount currently for sale on the market.


Tyrel

About 20 plus years ago, Ernst Mutzatko (author of "The Cold Steel Weapons of the SA, the SS and the NSKK of the NSDAP" under the pne name of Niederhofer} had access to the State Nazi Party Austrian files in Vienna, Austria, and made it a project to determine WHO received the SA Honor Dagger.
His findings were that ALMOST ALL SA Honor Daggers were only awarded to SA Gruppenfuhrers and up. Only one or two occassions had he found a rank lower than SA Gruppenfu. received this dagger.
So, if you can determine how many SA men had this rank and above, you would be fairly certain how many were issued.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron,

Are you saying that (except for one guy) only gruppenfuhrers could be awarded the dagger ... or that ALL gruppenfuhrers were awarded an Honor Dagger ?

Dave, I'm not saying anything. I am reporting what Niederhofer found in his research for his book. Also, that would be SA Gruppenfuhrers and Obergruppenfuhrers. He also told me that he confirmed this theory from period photographs of the daggers in wear and the rank of the wearer.
It sounded quite plausable to me at the time and I see no other evidence to change my mind.
Unfortunately, Niederhofer was killed some years ago by a hit and run driver who may have been linked to a group of people in Vienna who did not approve of what Niederhofer and his brother were collecting and researching.
I spoke with Niederhofer (Mutzatko) approximately three times a week by phone for hours on end over a three year period prior to my release of my first work on NPEA Daggers and he was very helpful on that reference book and supplied much information from the Austrian archives. His brother had direct ties to the Austrian government and had access to files that no regular citizen could access and this is where much of my information originated.
His loss was a great blow to our hobby and period information sources.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Chained SA high leader daggers were not made from " Honor Daggers". Early high leader daggers did not have chains. Some were upgraded with chains-some were not.Later models came from the factory with chains.

Early SA Honor daggers is a matter of terminology.( T Johnson Vol 1 )When chains were added to them .They became SA High Leader Honor daggers.IMO

All I can contribute is that in my opinion if a collector bought one at todays prices, he better love it because the price has not moved in 5-6 years and the market is very thin for them. They are beautiful, but to put $40-$50K in ONE dagger is a strong leap of faith. I love them but that's 40-50 nice SA's or 10-15 nice SS daggers. I just never could see the economics and all I can do is look at them like a kid in a candy store window. One of the nicest I have seen was at the SOS this year at Tom Johnson's table. I think it belonged to Dennis Porell.

Now if I could only hit the powerball...I'd scarf a few of them up! SS too!

Mark

Considered one of the best looking and scarcest Nazi Daggers, the Chained SA High Leader's Dagger has always been in demand. Priced in the $30,000 to $35,000 range just five years ago, the current market ranges from $40,000 to $50,000, depending on condition and supply.
I was fortunate enough to find mine from a local source for $6,000 several years ago and it is still my favorite dagger.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Hey Ron, let me triple your investment and give us both a nice Christmas! You got one heck of a deal on that one buddy. Is it damascus and chained?

Mark

Its a Damascus Chained Eickhorn over-the-shoulder one with 95% plus gold on the motto.
Super condition with only the slightest flaking of leather on the lower seam of the scabbard. Its a keeper and it came out of La Grange (pop. less than 1000), MO lawyer who was on the staff at the Nuremburg Trials (assistant to the Prosecutor). It was the only relic he brought back and brought it in a shoe box.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Hey Ron, if you get a chance can you post a pic of that one you have with the maker mark and the leather? I am becoming a student of these daggers and would like to know about this maker mark, number of them vs the oval Eickhorn mark.

Thanks..

Mark

Mark, I would, but don't have a photo and it is buried in one of the five bank boxes of daggers that I have and, with Christmas and my book coming out, I just don't have time to go and find it right now.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

quote:

Originally posted by Ronald Weinand:
............ buried in one of the five bank boxes of daggers
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Does Senta lives in Illinois ?

Interesting thread. I think there is a lot to be learned about these daggers, but it will be hard to do because of limited numbers. Some varied thoughts:

1. I think that trying to calculate original issue quantities from what has turned up at shows would be a stretch as there are too many variables.

2. I would think that there was some minimum rank level to be considered for this dagger under normal conditions and Gruppenfuhrer sounds about right. On the other hand, I would not think that it was an automatic award. I have no way of proving this theory except that if all GF's got them, we should have seen more.

Maybe the first step should be defining exactly what qualifies as an Honor Dagger and then trying to count the ones we know about.

Dave

Ron, do you feel that the demise of Niederhofer may have been a ODESSA hit, or something else?
It is a sad loss to all of us. Sorry. -wagner-

It was believed at the time that it was the JDL, but nothing was ever found and it was a hit and run as I am told.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

So if it's $50,000 for the SA High Leader- how much would a type set of all daggers cost for the dagger collector - including SA,SS,Luft Postal,Customs, Rad, Teno, etc? Throw in a few higher priced ones like the SS Rohm at 20-25K & I'm guessing it would be $250,000 for a nice type set. Or one would have to be extremely lucky in motel type buys.

Motel Buys was not the answer either. I did over 350 and my first partner did over 400 and we, together, did not find them all.
It was close-only a few of the really rare pieces were missing-No Sea Customs-No Damascus SS-NO Delux Hunting-No First Model RLB Officer-No Railway Water Protection-No NPEA Leader. We found the rest, but not always in the condition needed for a nice set.
Today, the motel buy is almost done. There may be a few more come out of the woodwork this way, but the cost has become prohibitive and it is just not effective anymore like it was in the beginning.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Yep, you can't keep getting both ways forever. From what I hear the kids of the vets now go and Google everything. Before they would be happy to take $500.00 on a chained SS.... not anymore. But Hey, what a run it was! I'm sure there will be a stash here and there, now and then. Nothing like it was before. They used to be suprised when someone actually wanted to pay some money for this "Nazi Junk". How the times have changed. Right Ron? -wagner-

I can't begin to describe the feeling! The first one I did was in Alton, Il. in 1984. The frist veteran in the door had a stone mint Aluminum NSFK by Helbig. I offered $85.00 and he grabbed it out of my hand and asked me why in the world I would want some dumb ole Nazi knive for that amount of money?
The next vet had a suitcase full of RZM M7/13 SAs in stone mint condition (13). I offered $50.00 each and he took them home. He said he had 25 at the end of the war and had given them away and wanted just to know how much he had passed out. I don't know what ever happened to him as I tried to keep tract over the years, but he would never sell and moved.
In the middle 1980s over a three and a half year period, I bought 10 M36 Chained SS Daggers and missed a few along the way. None were ever as nice as the one I got from Wittmann who found it in a man's basement rafters that he put a heating system in his house and I was lucky enough to happen to have called Tom on the day he found it and talked him out of it. Choice early nickel silver one with original knot and I have kept it all these years, so I have learned that some things you just can't find and have to pony up the money if you want nice things.
What I am most happy about is that fact that I got over 80% of my collection directly from veterans and have most of the stories to go along with them. I even have vet signed papers and photos with some of the better pieces like my Himmler's and Rohm's, my Water Protection Police, my TeNo Jr. from a 36th Armor Regt. man and my Damascus Navy Shooting Prize. These just can't be replaced today.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

A Water Protection Police? You must have found that one in the last few years? Talk about a rare bird! Tell them what you paid for that one. Love to hear the stories from the Old Crew
that dug them out of the woodwork. Thanks Ron. -wagner-

WP with Eagle on grip by Horster with knot out of Rock Island, Il and paid $500.00 in 1988 (no steal at the time, but I was glad to get one). With papers from vet out of Passau, Germany, from a desk in a police station located on the river that runs through or by that town.
Ron Weinadn
Weinand Militaria

The Sea Customs was mentioned. That is a beautiful dagger. I had never seen or heard of one before Craig Gottlieb had one for sale recently. It's got to be rarer than the SA High Leader, even though the SA HL is more of a prestige award.

I currently buy 3-5 German edged weapons a month directly from vets or their familes along with all sorts of other militaria. This past week I picked up a NM- Horster Luft sword from a vet along with a stone mint Eickhorn rzm Sa. he was a Third division 15th Inf regiment vet. I don't advertise in newspapers either. What I do is a variation on the hotel buy on a weekly basis. One day a week I spend 7 hrs doing what I do. I am somewhat hesitant to say exactly what I do because I don't want competition in my area. In the past six months or so I've picked up 3 33SS, 2nd RLB EM, 2 luft swords, 2nd luft dagger, 2 Sa's, RAD em,Imperial Navy dirk, Approx 6 or 7 K98 bayonets, 3 or 4 NCO/EM swords. That is just the 3R edged weapons!

And here we sit paying retail....